Olivia Adams:Hello is this Mr. Scofield?
Clay Scofield:Yes, and you can just call me Clay.
OA:Okay Clay. This is Olivia.
OA:Very nice to hear from you too. How are you doing this morning?
CS:Doing well. Smoky, but it's a little better than yesterday, so yeah.
OA:It's pretty smoky here too and it gives me a headache. Yeah, fingers crossed that goes away. Well thank you for agreeing to doing the interview with me.
OA:Your daughter is lovely by the way. I really enjoy her class.
CS:Yeah, we think she's pretty amazing.
OA:Well you're not wrong. Alright well before I start asking you a few questions, I just wanted to let you know that that this interview might end up in the University of Idaho archives for future research. Are you okay with this interview being shared with other people for research here?
OA:Awesome, and I'll create a transcript once we're done. Would you like to see that transcript?
CS:It really isn't necessary.
OA:Okay well that sounds good, so I guess we'll get started if that's cool with you.
OA:Alright normally I wouldn't ask this question, but may I ask how old you were in the year 1960?
CS:1960... Well, let's see. I was born in '49.
OA:So you would have been 11?
OA:Okay, cool, just so I can gauge how old you were during the sixties.
CS:Yeah, and I graduated in '67.
OA:One moment. So when you were alive during the sixties, did you listen to a lot of music? Do you remember what artists you listened to at the time?
CS:Well I remember very distinctly, and I think I was in junior high, when The Beatles came to America. So that was a significant time. Paul Revere and the Raiders, which of course, started in Idaho. Paul McCartney. Mamas and the Papas.
OA:Oh the Mamas and the Papas, ha-ha.
OA:My dad he was born in 1966 but he, so he was a bit young during the sixties, but he really loved The Beatles.
OA:Do you think that the music at the time was more related to social change like civil rights? Or do you think that music was to do with partying?
CS:I think there was a mix, but I think a lot of it was about social change. And of course, I grew up during Vietnam, so there was a lot of resistance and frustration over that.
OA:I can imagine. What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War?
CS:Well, in general, it felt like we kind of got sucked into that war. And I mean, when I graduated from high school, I received a draft notice. And I would have been sent over, but I had lung problems, and they didn't think I could manage being in the humid heat over there.
OA:That's really crazy to think about today. To think about the draft today, I can't imagine. Did you have friends that were drafted?
CS:Oh yeah. Quite a few. And some of them didn't make it back. Many of them did.
OA:I'm sorry for your friends that didn't make it back.
OA:Did the war change how you felt about the United States as a global leader?
CS:You know, it didn't. It made me question our leadership more than anything. As far as the country goes, to me it is more than just who's in the White House or who's making the decisions.
OA:Absolutely I can agree with that. I study political science and international affairs, so it's pretty relevant to what I study today to hear about how you felt during that time. So thank you.
OA:So apart from the Vietnam War, do you remember other social movements at the time?
CS:Well yeah. So, towards the end of the sixties, there was clearly a lot of change and movement. We had Martin Luther King and his assassination. I lived in the Santa Cruz area, and then I took the course on urban populations. And we spent a month in San Francisco. And that was rather interesting. Because I went to a very conservative college, Christian college, to get my bachelor's degree. And the professor that I had for the urban populations set us up to go listen and talk to the gay liberation alliance, which was centered in San Francisco. The pink panthers, we talked to the black Panthers.
CS:And went to a church service at Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco, which was run by a gentleman who is gay, or was. So there was all of those things going on. And of course, Haight Ashbury in the sixties. There were lot of what was termed "hippies". And a lot of drug use. And again,just being in San Francisco during all of those change upheavals was pretty fascinating.
OA:I can only imagine. I was I was born in the Bay Area, and I have visited San Francisco so many times. I've seen Haight-Ashbury, and I just can only imagine what it would have been like in the Summer of Love in the 1960s.
CS:Yep, yep. Now, growing up in Boise, there really wasn't a lot of drugs in Boise at that time. I knew some guys who smoked pot and those kinds of things, but there just wasn't a large group that used drugs. A lot of alcohol use.
OA:That sounds about right for Idaho, yeah.
CS:And I don't know if my daughter told you, but after I graduated, I got my master's degree in marriage family and child counseling. I thought I would move back to Idaho. And I became a drug and alcohol abuse counselor.
OA:Wow that's very brave. I have a lot of respect for that. What made you decide to move back to Idaho?
CS:Well, I had spent four years getting my bachelor's degree in Santa Cruz, and then a couple of years in between. And then about three years getting my master's. And I just think that there is certain parts of California I really loved, but just the sheer number of people... that wasn't a place where I wanted to raise family. Both Margie's family and my family was here in Idaho, so we just felt like it was a good decision to move back.
OA:It was the same when I was a kid. My parents moved my family to Idaho because they felt it was a better place to raise my little brother and me. So I can see that being a similar reason. Did witnessing a lot of the drug use and the hippie movement in San Francisco... was that a piece of inspiration for you and your decision to become a substance abuse counselor?
CS:You know, part of it was working on my master's degree. I worked at a long-term treatment facility. And just dealing with the long-term effects of drug addiction and watching how it destroyed people's lives and families' lives. It just motivated me to move in that direction. Now when I was providing treatment, I worked extensively with families. Just recognizing that if the family wasn't on board, trying to make changes was extremely difficult.
OA:Yeah. Not to go off track of the interview, but my mom struggles with substance abuse, so I do have a lot of respect for what you do. So thank you.
CS:Well, yes. So I was talking the other day with one of my former clients, and I just saw him in downtown Emmett about a week ago. And when I first saw him, he couldn't stay sober to make it in for an outpatient appointment. Even if it was at eighto'clock in the morning. And I mean, his liver was failing, and he decided he wanted to change because his grandkids said, "we don't want to lose you". And he went into inpatient treatment. I got him in and got him involved in AA. Now 30 years later, and he's still sober.
OA:Yeah, there's always hope. And it takes a lot to help people in that way. Because I feel like it has to be a mix of understanding but also insistence to help them get better.
OA:Did you see that people during the sixties, that used drugs and were part of the hippie movement... were they treated differently in any way?
CS:Well again, I mean, I worked with people who used drugs on a regular basis. At least in the Bay Area, I didn't see any discrimination against them. It was just something they did, and as long as they did their work, everybody was cool.
OA:How common was it to find people using drugs? Was it pretty common? How significant did you feel that was as a part of the counterculture movement?
CS:In the Bay Area, I think it was fairly significant. You always had a large group that didn't and was very judgmental of anybody who did. But you know, you look at a percentage. Probably 10% of people are using drugs in one way or another.
CS:Ha-ha, yeah well, that is. Part of that was the area I was in. And even though I went to a Christian Bible college, there were students who used. Probably a couple of professors who used. Not that they advertised it, but you pick up the signs.
OA:Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if that statistic held true today in the Bay Area.
OA:Did you feel like that you saw quite a contrast going to a religious school in San Francisco? What was it like? what were some of your experiences? And did it come into play in your teaching? Like religion? Or was it a piece of your education? And how was that contrasted with, I guess, the counterculture movement in San Francisco at the time?
CS:Well, it wasn't a part of my education. So the college again was a very conservative college. But there were more liberal professors within that realm. My bachelor's degree was in psychology, and I think we certainly had discussions about drug addiction. But it wasn't a course or anything like that. It just came up as a part of what was going on at that time. I think the other interesting thing, I mean I grew up, my parents were very religious, particularly my mom. And at the church I went to, there was never any discussion about politics. The church at that time, the evangelical churches, were very clear that they wanted a separation between church and state. That benefited both the churches, and it benefited the state to stay out of politics. I mean in my younger years, abortion wasn't legal. And again as Roe versus Wade came up and went through the court systems, there was no discussion about "let's petition against this, let's get involved in this discussion." So it's very different than what we see today, which is churches trying to dictate what's happening in our nation.
OA:Yeah, that's actually fascinating. That's not something that I would have expected to hear about going to church at the time, and that there was that separation. Because today that's very common, especially in terms of abortion stuff.
OA:Did you experience any type of culture shock when you went from Idaho to go to school in the Bay Area?
CS:Oh yeah. Ha-ha. So my first four years was in the Scotts Valley, which is just up the hill from Santa Cruz. And I worked in Santa Cruz, plus went to college. The Santa Cruz area was just really laid back. And again, a significant number of people using drugs. The house I lived in off of campus, I paid $100 a month collision, and it was a house. That's hard to imagine.
CS:When I moved to San Jose to start working on my master's degree, that was much more of a culture shock, really. Because of just the sheer number of people and the activities. It was not bad; it was just so different than what I was accustomed to.
OA:I can imagine. And the number of people... I'm trying to wrap my head around how many people would have been in that area during the time.
CS:Well, over in Santa Cruz, it was a small enough group of people. But again, there was just lots of different groups of people. And it felt like, to me, people were pretty accepting of each other just the way they were. In Stanford, or rather San Jose. At one point, I moved to Sunnyvale. And it was primarily a black community. And that wasn't big deal to me because that's why I moved there. But it was fascinating because oftentimes blacks were suspicious of me because I was kind of... I stood out. I had red hair!
CS:Ha-ha. It was kind of like: "yeah, okay." I remember at one point in in the class, where we stayed in San Francisco, where we stayed was in the black section of town. I forget the name of it. And we were kind of in a dorm situation where there was 20 of us all sleeping in the same room. And again, I was accustomed to being on my own. So I'd sometimes wake up and then go for a walk at night. And there was a lot of crime that went on in the area. And I'd be walking down the street, and the black people walking towards me would cross to the other side of the street. I finally figured out that they didn't get white people in that neighborhood unless they were looking for trouble. It's like "I'm sorry, not looking for trouble. I just need to walk."
OA:And it's sad that that was their experience, that they had to worry about that. And it wasn't even anything to do with who you were. It was just that at the time. Yeah wow. Did you see any form of discrimination during the civil rights movement? Were you aware? Did you know people that were discriminated against?
CS:Yes absolutely. Of course growing up in Boise, I think there was one black student at Boise High. We had 2000 students. There may have been more, but at least around my age. And again, I didn't think anything of it. He was a friend of mine. But there was certainly discrimination against him. One of my best friends was Chinese. And his name was Hoi-Lee. And, again, just because he was Asian, there was discrimination against him. And we were friends from grade school right up through high school. For me, growing up in the home I did, there was no discrimination overtly being shown. I think there was some views around white marrying black just because of cultural differences, not because they were black. So I'm grateful that I grew up in a home that accepted whoever. It didn't matter. And that's the kind of Christianity that I grew up with. And so what I'm seeing today just appalls me. The level of vitriol towards gays. And I don't understand i
OA:Neither do I. I wonder when in time did that shift take place. I don't know if anyone has that answer, but at what point did that become the new... a new piece of religion?
CS:I don't know. It baffles me.
OA:I'm from Coeur d' Alene, Idaho. And so it's, I guess, it's crazy because when you were talking about there being one Chinese friend you had and one black friend that you had, it's still like that today. In Coeur d' Alene, you know it's crazy that after so many years, that is still an experience. And I mean, Coeur d'Alene, of course, used to have a KKK headquarters in Hayden, so it's not surprising. But it is crazy to me to hear that that was an experience you had, but that's also an experience I had. And it has been so long.
CS:Yeah, yeah. Times change, and it's not always for the good.
OA:Yeah, yes. And there's... in North Idaho of course, there's a lot of very, very religious people that practice in a way that is homophobic. And it's really hard because, of course, I have a lot of friends that are part of the LGBTQ+ community and are growing up in Idaho. Like I have a friend who lives here in Moscow, but he doesn't like going to Coeur d'Alene because it's scary to him. And it's sad that it has been so long and it's still a part of the time today.
CS:Still a part, yep. Yeah, you asked about whether I was aware of any prejudice. You know, if you listened to the news at all. Certainly, growing up during Martin Luther King and Kennedy, it was a part of what you saw in the news almost daily. And it feels like we're going backwards rather than forwards at this point. And again, I just don't understand it. It makes me mad. Because it feels like we just... we fought this. And for people really going back to that way of thinking. Of course, I think the other side of it is a lot of those people just kept their heads down and didn't say anything. Until we got a leader who supports it and actively keeps people focused on people being less than.
OA:It is heartbreaking honestly. It really is.
OA:As a political science student, something that I've been studying recently as part of a few of my classes is whether or not there is a backslide of democracy in the United States. And it's interesting to link those social issues. Of course, I'm only 20. I wasn't alive like during the sixties. But to hear from your experience, and how you still see that there aresteps going backwards when, like you said, that there was already a fight for equal rights. And it's sad to hear in a lot of ways.
CS:Yeah, it is. Again, it seems that when people feel less than, then they got to find somebody to say that they're at fault. So it's: "if we just get rid of the gays, we'll be fine. I'll have a good job I'll have what I want." You know?
OA:Yeah, so unfortunately for them, it doesn't work that way.
CS:Nope, no it does not. It never will. They're just being dishonest with themselves.
OA:I know San Francisco, the Bay Area, has a pretty a long history of being like a center for the pride movement. Did you witness a lot of... during the sixties, did you see any discrimination against people who were part of LGBTQ+?
CS:Well, first you have to understand that they didn't have those terms. It was really at the beginning of the fight for equality and safety. As I said, we as a class went and talked to the gay liberation alliance group and the Pink Panthers, which were a pretty militant group trying to stop the discrimination. So it was really the beginnings of saying "we've had enough. This isn't right." But I kind of laugh because back when I was in high school, a book came out called the "Boys of Boise". I don't know if you've heard of it at all. It was a book written about the political and business leaders in Boise that were gay. And it was amazing how many... some of them were prosecuted, but many weren't. And again, it's like "why would you be concerned about who he's having sex with, unless it is with children?" Okay, and I get that. But these men weren't having sex with kids. But there was a whole, I think probably 20, and of course this was further back than the sixties. It would have been in the forties and fifties. So a conservative state still had gay people. Go figure!
CS:And they were very successful gay people. There were some of those that married just so that suspicion was not focused on them about being gay.
CS:Yeah, it is. It's like: "it's not okay to be who you are." Or they talk about freedom. But it's freedom for you to do whatever you want to do, but not for a gay person, or a woman, or on and on and on.
OA:Exactly, it's like they limit who freedom can apply to, and it undermines the term itself.
OA:What was it like when you spoke with members from the Black Panthers?
CS:Again, what I experienced was that they were open to talk and wanting people to listen. So it didn't matter that... I think we had a couple of Asians in our class but no blacks. They wanted us to understand their life experience. And what they were going through. So even though they were a militant group, it wasn't about just trying to hurt people because they were white. It was about trying to get people to understand. So, from my end of things, it was a very positive experience.
OA:That's interesting because I feel like in history, in a lot of ways, there are things said about the Black Panthers that, in a way, can undermine that their mission was for that understanding.
CS:Yeah, well, and again, I mean, they demonstrated, they did things that were considered illegal. But again, it's like how do you get the attention of people in power? Now in the early seventies, they had what was called the zebra murders. And they were...in fact there was a fair number that occurred in San Francisco...where a black person would pick out a white person just at random and shoot. But that was not... and again, I think part of what people did was they tended to just group people. And well, if you're black, or if you're part of the Black Panthers, you're out there doing these things. And that was not the case.
OA:It's like one bad apple spoils the bunch.
CS:Well, it certainly can. But again, to me it's always my responsibility to do the research to look at: ok who are these people that are doing these things? And where does it cross the line? And again, when you still have lynchings in the forties, fifties, sixties in the South. Can I blame the Black Panthers for being militant? I don't think so. This is the same thing that we're facing now. It is like, you've got police officers killing and incarcerating blacks at a much higher rate than whites. Is there a problem? Yeah! Does that mean get rid of police? I don't think so, but we'd better do a better job training and getting rid of police officers who do those kinds of things. And again, part of the problem has been that we had a culture of covering up that stuff that's gone back a lot longer than the sixties.
OA:Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question for you. If you saw similarities between a lot of the BLM movements today andthe Civil Rights movements back in the sixties.
CS:Oh yeah. I mean, to me, it's strictly clear. And again, part of the problem is that we make some progress, and then we get idiots in charge, and we go back. I've never seen it go back as far as we have now. And again, part of that started in the Supreme Court. That struck down affirmative action. It's like, if you don't hold some of these states accountable, they'll do whatever they want to do. And so, the Supreme Court, as we've experienced, has a lot of ability to shape the attitudes and values of our nation.
OA:Oh absolutely. Especially when you have Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett from Trump's presidency. And I feel like, especially with Amy Coney Barrett, like you see the religion come into play in the values that they bring forth.
OA:It really is fascinating to hear that there was a distinct separation between politics and religion when you went to church because that's just...that's crazy because there's definitely not that today. And it comes into play especially...I do feel like in the Supreme Court. Now there's talk of overturning certain things that involve like gay marriage and it's, it's crazy.It hasonly been since 2008 and now they're already... it is already being called into question.
CS:Yeah, of course. One of the things that is relatively new was this Supreme Court saying that a white could marry a black because there was a lot of states where that was not legal. And you have a supreme court justice who is very conservative and is a black who is married to a white. Do you really think that people don't see what you're doing? It is like, if as long as it doesn't affect you, they will establish whatever rule they want to. It was interesting because we went to the pride parade this last weekend on Sunday. And there was a whole hoorah about a kid drag show. And it's like: okay, you don't know what you're talking about, and it is none of your business. But what I saw was businesses step up and not back away. There was probably 10 or 15 church groups that were represented at the pride festival, so not all churches have gone crazy. It was good to see. It was encouraging.
OA:That is good. That is good to know. And I guess I can't generalize and say all churches are like that in Coeur d'Alene because there are definitely... I can think of one church that is a bit more accepting. I'm glad to hear that there was support in Boise because in Coeur d'Alene, we had, over the summer, a pride festival in the park. And I'm sure you heard about the U-Haul being busted with a bunch of militants that were going to the pride festival. So its... to me it does seem crazy, it does seem backwards. And I haven't lived through history for that long.
CS:Yeah, yep. Well, you know, in terms of growing up in the sixties, it was a fascinating time. Because there was so much change going on and questioning. Just because the leaders said we need to go to war doesn't mean that that's the right decision to make. I mean, there had been family members who went to Canada because they refused. They would not go to war. And they lived there until they were allowed to come back because they could not support going to war.
OA:My mom is Canadian, and I have dual citizenship. And I feel like I would probably do the same.
CS:Yeah, yep. I mean, obviously Canada isn't perfect either, but some of the things that are going on today in America is... it's just discouraging. Of course, I also believe you have to vote. You have to get out and say what is right. The other interesting thing. I mean, there's a lot of bias in news. But I think today at least we've learned to expect that from both sides. And we went to the parade, and just listening to the news reports from Fox News compared to MSNBC. The Fox News reports said there were hundreds of people there that participated in the parade and watched the parade. Whereas MSNBC said there were thousands. Well, we estimated just based on the number of groups and floats that were in the parade that there was at least 700 people in the parade itself. And the streets were lined on both sides of the street with two to three deep, some places more
So, I would estimate at least 7,000-8,000 people were involved in the parade and watching it. So, it's like, okay, if you listen to Fox News, you're under the impression that for the size of Boise, there wasn't that many people there. They tried to get a group of "Freedom Dogs". We are not talking about freedom; they are just dogs. But they wanted a whole bunch to come out and show their disapproval. There may have been a dozen, and they caused no problem because again, you've got thousands and thousands of people there. And there was a large police presence and security presence. So, I'm sure it discouraged any... and I think the fact that those men up in Coeur d'Alene who were arrested and are now facing charges and having to go to court. Maybe they decided that it just wasn't worth it. So, know that whole thing was scary, and it could have turned out a lot worse. I think it was probably one of the better things that could have happened.
OA:I can agree with that. I am glad to hear that it was such a big event in Boise. And that you can take the incident in Coeur d'Alene and say, "okay, that makes us hopeful for the future that these people are having to face consequences for their actions."
OA:It is hard with the news nowadays to find something that's nonbiased and reliable.
CS:And we can listen to several different news outlets just so that we know what's being said across the board. And again, I think there's bias on both sides. I prefer a more liberal bias ha-ha.
CS:On a fiscal level, I tend to be conservative. But I oftentimes say that doesn't mean you don't spend money. It's how you spend the money, how you make decisions about where to focus your money. So, if you don't spend money on road upkeep, you're going to have a mess. If you don't spend money in assisting people who are in need, you're going to have a mess. You're going to fill up the prisons. It's how you spend your money. It's kind of the focus. And people who gripe about taxes and complain about the roads, I have no tolerance for this. Well, if you want better roads, you need to pay more money. That is just the way it is.
OA:Some people just like to complain.
CS:Ha-ha, that is the truth.
OA:Did you find it difficult...like was the news very biased growing up in the sixties? Or did you find the news like...I know today it's very biased, and it's hard to find something that you know is truthful. Was that a problem for you growing up, or is there a point at which that changed?
CS:Well, growing up we had at first one TV channel. There was more news that you got on the radio. The most number of channels through high school I think was three in Boise. I feel like the news was much less biased. Of course, this is long before the advent of the Internet and all of that. So, you had less ability to kind of search around and look for information. But the Internet has also just exploded the crazies out there that get a following. And people keep tuning into them for their information. It's like, okay. The newspaper...again I thought, for an area that is as conservative as Idaho is, it is less biased than I would have expected it to be. Because, like I said, we certainly got news about lynchings in the South. About Martin Luther King's advocating for change. So, it was there, and I felt like it was fairly balanced. And of course, in the sixties, we went into Vietnam. They really did it, share both sides of the equation. And of course, part of that was the hippie movement and the people who were saying, "you know, this isn't right." Jane Fonda was still around. A big advocate for saying that this harming people is not helping. So, I felt like, you never get all of the news, all of the information. And I think historians can go back and kind of sift through things and get a better view. But we certainly heard about the massacres that occurred in Vietnam. So, there was no effort to cover that up. So, in some respects, I think it was more balanced at that point than what we see today.
OA:That's really interesting, that if you're getting your news from the radio. Or if you're getting your news because there aren't many TV channels, it would be more about what really is going on. I think today, the news is also used as an entertainment industry.
CS:Yeah, that is very accurate. And it's the whole thing of: "if there is no thing actually happening yet, then I'm going to put on all kinds of opinions about what might happen." And again, that's trying to viewership, being the person who breaks the news. And it's like, okay, we don't know. Like with the whole thing with Mar-a-Lago, we don't know what's happening in the Justice Department. Only what they did in terms of raiding -- well not raiding -- but getting a warrant and collecting the information. But I get tired of: well, this expert, you know this former FBI agent, this.... Well until things actually shake out, you don't know. It's just a guess. And my guess is probably just as good as yours. Like you say, it's more about entertainment than actual news.
OA:Yeah, I feel that's very true. And especially with like Mar-a-Lago, like you just have to wait and see because you have both sides. Like some people saying "oh it's nothing" and some people saying "it's going to be very significant".
CS:Well, I think it's significant, but whether they will actually charge him or not? Who knows? I've dealt enough with the legal system to know that it isn't always right or fair. So, just because he's guilty doesn't mean he is going to be found guilty.
OA:Yeah, there's not always.... the justice system isn't perfect.
CS:No. And the more power and influence you have, the better the outcome you usually have in court. And that's not the way it's supposed to be, but it certainly is.
OA:Yeah, there's definitely some privilege in terms of wealth.
OA:Which, I would hope after so many years, we would have moved past that, but there's still discrimination in the courts, and there's still police brutality. And it is hard to see that people were fighting and dying in the sixtiesfor civil rights, and there's still an issue with, you know, equal treatment today.
CS:Again, part of what I think happened, is that as things improved, it was easy to say "okay, you know we don't have to worry about that now." And it's not true. We do have to worry about it. We do have to be vigilant. Unfortunately, I think Americans in general...our attention span is very short.
OA:Ha-ha, yeah. And just because we made progress doesn't mean that the issues aren't systemic, you know.
CS:Yep, yep. And because they are systemic, it's difficult because you start criticizing the systemic nature of it. It is like, well, you're being critical of America. Well yeah, because if you're not honest with yourself, you cannot change. So, as Americans, it's up to us to be honest with ourselves and say, "well this is an area we need to work on. This is the part that we're failing in." I mean, to me it's hard to believe that on the federal level, they are just now getting rid of the use of the word "squaw". So, there's over 700 monuments and mountains that use that term. One of the people that I know, that I strongly disagree with, was upset because they're going to change the Butte that overlooks Emmett from "Squaw Butte" to something else. And it's like: okay, if the name of the mountain was "Bitch Butte", do you think people would be upset?
CS:And rightfully so! And so, you can't understand that a Native American would be upset at that term? Again, I have a hard time understanding peoples' biases that way. Well just because it has been named that for 100 years doesn't mean it's right.
OA:I agree. Andjust because it's not offensive to you doesn't mean it's not offensive to other people.
OA:It doesn't make sense to me either. Like the way I see it, if it's offending someone, then like, let's change it.
CS:Why not? I mean, it's not that difficult. Again, it just blows me away that we now have a Native American as Secretary of State, and she made that decision. It should have been done a long time ago. But again, you have a whole group of people who just want to whitewash, literally, history. And not, to not recognize, the mistakes that have been made.
OA:I agree. And especially because a lot of the history, even the history I was taught growing up, like is pretty whitewashed. And it's, you know, a white man's, a successful white man's, history. And so, it's important to hear about the experiences of minorities and the experiences of women. And because it has been silenced for so long. And because we have like this whitewashed history, you see things like problems that people were fighting during the sixties are still problems that we are fighting now.
CS:Yeah, and I really think that a large part of the movements that occurred in the sixties were about questioning. Just because this has been the way it has been, doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean we can't change it.
OA:Absolutely. Do you feel as if any of your views have changed since, on social issues, since the sixties?
CS:I think that they have become broader. In part ...like I said growing up in a conservative church, we didn't...it wasn't a political process. And part of my frustration... anger towards the church, is about the changes that have occurred. And they really are not about Christianity; they're about a self-centered...trying to control other people. And it's like, that's not what Christianity is about. So, in some respects, my views have changed. I've always called myself a conservative, and Becca laughs at me. Because I've always been tolerant of other peoples' actions. I'm less tolerant of the people who call themselves Christians and act like heathens. Ha-ha
CS:That tolerance has always been there. Like I said, I'm conservative in terms of fiscal responsibility. It's like we don't...my wife and I don't have bills. Because we pay as we go, and if we can't afford it, we don't buy it. I think that's a rational way of doing things. So, when I look at the national approach to the things, particularly Republicans, just like particularly under Trump. It's like they wanted to spend money, but they don't want to raise taxes. In fact, they want to lower the taxes to the big businesses. And it's like, okay. People need to pay their share, and we need to raise enough money in order to pay for the things that are important, the things that we need. If that means paying more taxes, I'm fine with that.
OA:Yeah, and the term has just changed so much.
CS:Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. The terminology and things have changed. And so, in some respects, I changed how I approached things and talk about things. Partly because of the changes in our government and the changes in the church.
OA:It is really interesting to hear the differences with the church and the difference with the term conservatism. Because what people my age think of when they think of conservative, it's like guns and, it's you know, like against abortion. And it's not as much the fiscal side of things, it's more the social side of things.
CS:Yeah, well and you know, Idaho talks a big game about being fiscally conservative. And I have to laugh because of how much money Idaho gets from the federal government. And in general, they're pretty glad to be able to spend that money. Okay. If you're truly saying you don't want to spend tax money, you want to give all this money back to the people, you better acknowledge that you're able to do that because you've gotten a lot of federal money that allows us to run things. There's a lot of hypocrisy in politics in general, but here in Idaho, it's like, okay.
OA:I agree. Then they go and do things like turn down a bill for K through 12 education funding.
CS:Well, that specifically to me, is because they're not, if they are honest again, they want to get rid of public education. So why would you take money from the federal government for that?
OA:Yeah, it's interesting. Well thank you very much. It has been great getting to talk with you. I really enjoyed hearing about your experiences and hearing about your thoughts about how things are today. It has been really good to hear from someone who has such a perspective that you do, so thank you. It has been great.
CS:Well, you're welcome. I, again, like I said, there's a lot of parallels between what I'm seeing today and was going on in the sixties. And the bright side of that is people are still willing to fight, willing to say and speak the truth. And that is encouraging to me. When we were at the pride festival in Boise, somebody asked how I was doing. I said, "I'm doing wonderful." I said, "this is so encouraging" And he said "yes, yes it is." Because people were willing to come out and support and be themselves. So, I see the same fight that I saw in the sixties. And that's a good thing. It gives me hope for the future.
OA:And that's why it's important to study history. So you can see those parallels and you know, that we keep fighting.
OA:And at the end of the day, my idea of the fundaments of the United States, you know, our country was... at least I think... people started the US because...well they didn't want to pay taxes...
CS:Ha-ha, without representation.
OA:Yeah, without representation. But also, that you know they wanted freedom to speak their voices, have their voices heard, and practice what religion they choose. And so I, that's what I would hope to see. Is that everyone can be who they are here. But hopefully people my age, and like I certainly will, will fight for that moving forward and keep that going.
CS:Yep, yep. I hope so too. The fascinating thing to me is how churches have rewritten history. Because they talk about "well the founding fathers were Christian." It's like, I beg to differ, they were not! And they were spiritual people, but not Christian. And they were very intentional in making sure that there was a separation of church and state. That is what baffles me with the Supreme Court and some of the decisions they're making. Okay this is coming out of your religious beliefs, not out of the Constitution.
OA:It is crazy, really interesting hearing that because I had no idea that there used to be that type of separation in church. So crazy stuff.
CS:Alright well, I am glad my daughter gave you this assignment, and I was very happy to be able to talk to you about my experiences and views.
OA:Well, thank you very, much thank you. I do have one last question before you go.
OA:Do you have a favorite Beatle song?
CS:Uh, "Yellow Submarine".
OA:Yeah, "Yellow Submarine"! Ha-ha!
CS:Yeah, I know it's a little weird, but I loved it.
OA:A classic, no, how can you not love it? Yeah, we had a "Yellow Submarine" ornament on my Christmas tree growing up. It was my favorite as a kid.
OA:Yeah, it was like a little lunch box and a little thermos. And it had The Beatles on it and "Yellow Submarine". Ha-ha!
CS:Well, you have good taste.
OA:Thank you, you do too. Ha-ha.
CS:Alright, well it has been good talking with you.
OA:Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thank you, Clay.
CS:Alright, take care. Bye.