Visualizations | The Long 1960s

Fritz_john

Lucas Fritz: This is Lucas Fritz. It's September 11th, 2022. We're at the University of Idaho library in Moscow, Idaho. I'm with my father, John Fritz. John, do I have your consent today to conduct this interview?

[00:00:05]

Fritz_John-2

John Fritz: Yes.

Fritz_John-3

LF: How are you doing today?

Fritz_John-4

JF: Pretty good.

Fritz_John-5

LF: Good. Alright, so, you grew up in a large Catholic family in Boise in the 1960s, right?

Childhood
Family

Fritz_John-6

JF: Yes. 12 kids, parents. Went to Catholic school from 1st through 12th grade in Boise.

Childhood

Fritz_John-7

LF: What was that like and how do you think, if you were raised today, how do you think that would be different in that big of a family?

Childhood
Family

Fritz_John-8

JF: Well, I think today it would be impossible because of the cost. In the 1950s and 60s when I was growing up, it was expensive, but it was nothing like the cost of today. It was difficult because we had, we only had twelve kids in the house for a short time before my oldest brother moved out, but we did have that many for a while and we had 10 for quite a while in the house and it was very crowded because we only had four bedrooms. My parents had one of them and so the rest of the kids split up between three bedrooms, so it was very crowded. It was hard to get away and a lot of chaos, a lot of confusion much of the time. My mother's main usage of time was to kick us out of the house and have us go outside so she could get some peace and get some work done. So, it was, it was tough.

Childhood
Family

Fritz_John-9

LF: Do you remember what Boise was like in the 1960s?

Childhood

Fritz_John-10

JF: Yeah. Boise was a lot smaller. When we first moved to Boise when I was four, there was only 32,000 people. Now, it's, you know, close to 300,000 just in Boise and 700,000 in the Treasure Valley. So, it was very small. We could ride our bikes a mile and a half and be in the country, so it was very different. It was a small town. No traffic, really. People can leave their doors open and everybody kind of trusts each other. I spent all my time until I was a 9th grader riding my bike around. I never had to worry about getting rides or anything 'cause everything was close.

Childhood

Fritz_John-11

LF: You said you went to Catholic High School in elementary school in Boise. What was the culture like there?

Education
Childhood

Fritz_John-12

JF: It was pretty strict Catholic in those days. Of the eight grades at Sacred Heart, six of them were taught by nuns and there were two lay teachers, two lady lay teachers. There were three or four priests always at the church, so way different than it is today. It was very strict. When I first started going to school, they had the old Latin style mass where the priest faced the altar and did not face the people, and everything was in Latin. So, that was really weird because you couldn't really understand what was going' on. Then, in 1962, they switched over to the English thing and the priest turned around and faced the crowd, faced the audience. Everything was in English, so it was easier to understand. There were a lot more Catholic kids. There were a lot more people in involved in Catholicism. It's dwindled a lot in Boise and in the country. So, going to school, we had large classes. I think my graduating class was 55 student in one room. It was, it was not good. The nuns were - I'm sure they had good intentions, but they were not very good teachers, and everything was done kind of old school. Very rogue kind of education. Basically, regurgitating what they told you and not a lot of critical thinking or analytical thinking going on. It was pretty hard to manage that many kids in a classroom, I think.

Education

Fritz_John-13

LF: In Boise, at the time {you were} growing up, were there a lot of minority groups? Was there, in a way, segregation? Were there black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods?

[00:04:37]
Segregation
Childhood

Fritz_John-14

JF: Yes. It was a very small town and, I think, when I was in high school, it was 54,000, so it had grown about 20,000 in the ten or so years from the time we got here to the time I was in high school. There was a very small black neighborhood down in the central part of town. Very isolated. There were Latino people living out in Canyon County then, mostly because they were migrant workers or families of migrant workers who had decided to stay rather than go back to Mexico. So, there was a growing Latino population in Canyon County and a very small group of blacks who lived down in the River Street area. There were, also, Asians in Boise, but not very many. I would say, probably, 50 or less and they were congregated a little bit more north of River Street. So, the city was very segregated but the minority areas were very small. Very few people here.

Segregation
Diversity

Fritz_John-15

LF: Growing up in the 60s and up until your time graduating high school, what were some of your favorite books, musicians, and magazines to read?

Culture
Music

Fritz_John-16

JF: Well, I have never been a great reader. I have ADD and reading has always been fairly difficult for me, the ability to retain the material that I read. So, I was never a great reader. Mostly, I read sports books and that was most of what I read. Sometimes, I would read the newspaper. Magazines, Boy's Life was one that I read. I read Sports Illustrated from the time it started. Mostly magazines and, sometimes, newspapers and, obviously, I had to read my textbooks at school. But I always had difficulty retaining the material that I read. As far as music goes, I was not really aware of music very much until I was in the sixth grade. In the sixth grade, I was 12 years old in 1966. Of course, that's when the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and the English bands had begun. In America, The Beach Boys and some of those kinds of groups had grown and I started listening to that type of music in 1966 pretty seriously and have loved that kind of music ever since.

Culture
Music

Fritz_John-17

LF: What about high school? What were some of your favorite musicians in high school?

Music

Fritz_John-18

JF: In high school, it kind of changed because in the mid-sixties and up to about '68 when I was an eighth grader, the music was kind of simple and light and happy-go-lucky kind of music. In '68, it seems like, maybe even a little before that, the music started turning pretty heavy with a lot more heavy guitar music. Organ, drums, just a lot more complicated and more heavy music. So, bands like Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Band. Groups like that kind of changed everything. So, in the late 60s and early 70s, the music was more psychedelic and a lot heavier. There was still pop but I didn't listen to that.

Music

Fritz_John-19

LF: In Boise, during the 1960s, do you remember any reactions in the town to some of the big social, political, pop culture moments that were going on at that time?

Socialmovements

Fritz_John-20

JF: Well, the biggest one, probably, was the Boys of Boise scandal that happened in the 60s. That was where there were a number of gay men in Boise that were living in the closet. You know, they could not say how they were because they would be arrested. It was against the law. And so, the Boys of Boise scandal was one in which some of the male homosexuals in Boise got caught in bathrooms in the different parks of the city and it became a big deal. A book was written about it, and I think, maybe, even a movie was done. So, that was a big thing of the time. The issues like the Vietnam War and racism and social justice and all that kind of thing did not really hit Boise as much because of its conservative nature and it's kind of out-of-the-way situation. By the time the Vietnam War became an issue here, it was really late. It was probably in the late 60s and in the 70s. So, we got involved with it just at the tail end of the war. In the early 60s and mid 60s when the war was really ramping up and becoming controversial, that was happening in the cities but not in Boise. Plus, the conservative nature of it made it so the city fathers, the people that ran the city did not want to deal with the Vietnam War. They did not want to deal with controversies like racial justice, social justice, any of that kind of stuff. They just wanted to, you know, have their peaceful conservative situation. And that's stayed the same ever since.

Socialmovements
Vietnam

Fritz_John-21

LF: When you were in high school and even after high school, in college, do you remember any student groups that were around, especially at BK (Bishop Kelly High School)?

[00:10:30]
Socialmovements
Education

Fritz_John-22

JF: Yeah. We had a group called the Yacht Club that were all the guys that were not jocks, not athletic. Well, we were athletic, but we were not jock kind of people. We did stuff like environmental kind of things after Arbor Day happened in 1971. So, we were a radical group of guys that got high and did environmental justice kind of things and were kind of rebels to the whole situation -- the school we were in, the society that we were in.

Socialmovements
Sociallife

Fritz_John-23

LF: You mention getting high. What was the culture around weed, especially, and drugs in general at Boise at the time?

Culture

Fritz_John-24

JF: Well, Boise, again, was late to the drug situation. Throughout the fifties and the early sixties, drinking was the big deal. Everybody that was in high school drank and it was a very strange situation. I remember in junior high and high school; you'd go to football games and there'd be fights out in the parking lot and guys drinking all the time. The big thing was drinking and driving around town. A lot of fighting. Nampa High School, especially, everywhere they went, they'd empty their stands, go out into the parking lot, and get in fights with people. The high school thing was drinking and that lasted all the way up until the seventies. The last year where drinkers were the majority was 1970. After that year, pot and drugs became the majority. By the time I graduated from high school in 1972, probably 80% of the students in Boise were getting high, using drugs. And, of course, alcohol was always there, too. The drug thing, probably, started coming into Boise in 1969. After 1970 was when it really ramped up and became the big deal.

Culture
Sociallife

Fritz_John-25

LF: Was there a big push back from people at BK, specifically, and in Boise to that kind of culture?

Culture

Fritz_John-26

JF: Well, I think, eventually, there was. But, early on, the people were oblivious -- the administration at Bishop Kelly, the teachers, and just the people in Boise, even the police, really had no idea what was going on with drugs. The cops went and got educated and learned pretty quickly what was going on but the people at Bishop Kelly did not ever really get it, what was going on. Kids would go out at lunchtime in the back of the school and get high and a lot of kids came to school on drugs, you know. The teachers and the administration had no idea what was going on. There was one priest, Father Dodson, who had moved to Bishop Kelly from California, where he had been exposed to a lot of drug use and that kind of thing, so he understood what was going on and he could relate to it. But he was, really, the only one in the whole school that knew what was going on.

Culture
Education

Fritz_John-27

LF: In your family, growing up in the sixties, obviously, [there was] so much going on in the country. Did you talk a lot with your parents, siblings, and, even, extended family about social and political issues going on?

[00:14:13]
Family
Socialmovements

Fritz_John-28

JF: I really didn't become aware of any of the social issues, again, until I was in sixth grade or seventh grade. Then, we started talking about it a little bit. My parents were not really interested in it. They had so much to deal with in just trying to do the day-to-day living and raising all of these kids and taking care of them. My dad was not interested in that kind of stuff at all. He was interested in sports and in his work, and that was, basically, it. My mom, you know, she was overwhelmed, basically, with childcare, taking care of kids. So, we could talk about it for, you know, a few minutes at a time but it was not anything that was big in her life. She would listen and she would ask questions. The only thing that she was aware of was what she saw on the news because she did not really have time to read or get involved in any of that kind of stuff. Basically, her life was raising kids and that took all of her time. So, in our family, we talked, mostly, about sports -- the guys. The girls, I'm not really sure. I can't remember exactly if we ever talked about social issues. I think we sometimes talked about gender issues, but not very much. And, you know, in Boise, the people were not very aware of what was going on in the country. Most of what the adults thought of what was going on in the country scared them and shocked them and made them angry because they didn't want protestors against the war. They did not want social justice issues. The Freedom Riders, and that kind of thing, they didn't want any part of that.

Socialmovements
Culture

Fritz_John-29

LF: You brought up that your mom would really just focus on what she heard in the news. For you and for your family, how did you get your news growing up in the sixties and into high school and college?

News
Family

Fritz_John-30

JF: Well, obviously, back then there was no cable TV. There was no internet. There was none of that kind of stuff. There was, basically, three stations: ABC, NBC, and CBS. They were all, you know, the good old white boys of that generation. They would do the news and much of the news was just covered over. They did not really report what was really going on in Vietnam. They did not really report much about social issues. They just reported about the stuff that sounded good about America. You know, it took years later before we really found out what was going on with these things behind the scenes, such as the CIA operations, the stuff the Presidents had done without anybody knowing. All that kind of stuff came out later. So, during the sixties, people thought of America as this great country that did everything right and [there were] no problems at all. Of course, that ended pretty radically starting in 1968 with the Democratic National Convention and just all the stuff that was going on with racial problems and, of course, when the Vietnam War protest got violent and serious, of course, the nation had to change.

News
Change

Fritz_John-31

LF: Speaking of the '68 DNC Convention, do you remember -- you can speak on that, too -- or any other specific events or moments that you remember.

Socialmovements

Fritz_John-32

JF: Yeah, there were times in Boise when there were small groups of people that would go protest against the war starting in '68, when I was fourteen, when I was an eighth grader. I used to go down and watch them, me and my friends would go down and watch some of them sometimes. The hippies were starting to happen in Boise in '68. You could go down to the park and you could see the hippies down there and they would be smoking pot and playing music sometimes, drumming, and just hanging out. And then, you know, you would see some of these high school or college redneck guys come into the park and run them out. They would tell them they were gonna kick their ass or leave the park. One of the big things in Boise at the time was running the hippies out of the park. So, then, when these protests would happen down at the Capitol Building or different places, it would, normally, be the same kind of people, you know. The socially aware people, the hippies, they would be the ones protesting and, all of a sudden, you would see the cops or these redneck vigilantes, I guess you would call them, they'd come, and they'd run these people off. [They would] Either tell them to get out or they'd beat them up. Of course, these guys were not tough, so they were not going to fight these guys, so they would leave. That happened fairly regularly.

Socialmovements
Culture

Fritz_John-33

LF: Obviously, one of the biggest moments of the sixties was the JFK assassination. Do you remember where you were when that happened and anything surrounding there in the following days and weeks?

[00:19:58]
News
Childhood

Fritz_John-34

JF: Yeah, it was very traumatic. I remember exactly, I can see it in my mind's eye, sitting in my desk in the fourth grade at Sacred Heart. Mrs. Fitting was the teacher. We were just having our regular day and, all of a sudden, someone knocked on the door and she went to the door. She came back and she was just crying, crying uncontrollably. She was, you know, just sobbing. We were all pretty weirded out by that and she just said the President had been shot and killed. Kids in my class cried and I didn't really know what to think. I didn't cry but I was shocked. But Mrs. Fitting, for at least the next hour, was just beside herself. She could not control it; she could not control the class. It was just a mess. And of course, being a Catholic school and John Kennedy was a Catholic president, it hit us pretty hard. We, after about an hour or two that day, I remember, we all got called into the gym and the priest, Father Hallisey, talked about what had just happened. Kids were crying and teachers were crying, and it was a horrible day for us and for our country. It was shocking and it lasted for quite a while, actually, around. a lot more than today. Things don't last very long when anything happens, but I would say that for - it happened in November, and I would say, for at least two months or more, it was in our minds and the topic came up quite a lot. It was a major shock.

Childhood
News

Fritz_John-35

LF: What were your opinions on specific Presidents at the time? I would say JFK, LBJ, and then Nixon.

Fritz_John-36

JF: Well, you know, when I was young and Kennedy was in office and then the start of LBJ, you know, we were just not very aware. They were the President, they were great -- all that kind of thing. So, I didn't really have any thoughts one way or another. But then, I got into junior high, seventh grade, especially. Some of the stuff started coming about some of the dubious things that Eisenhower did and that Kennedy did and then LBJ. Just a few things, nothing like what we know now. Those things came out and it'd sort of change your mind a little bit that these guys were not saints, these guys were human beings. In some cases, they were doing things that were absolutely wrong, especially the stuff that the CIA got into doing in Central and South America and other places around the world. So, by the time I was in junior and, certainly, by the time I was in high school, by high school I was very disillusioned about this country and about what we had been doing in the world for many, many years. Especially, ever since World War II, about how we thought we were the next empire and we started doing all kinds of undercover things around the world. So, by the time I was in high school, I was very disillusioned with this country. And then, Nixon comes along in 1968 and just pretty much destroyed all of our thoughts about our democracy, about anybody being honest in this country.

Change
Adulthood

Fritz_John-37

LF: What were the opinions of you, your family, and people around Boise about some of the activists at the time, like Martin Luther King or Malcolm X?

[00:24:02]
Socialmovements
Culture

Fritz_John-38

JF: Yeah, and you could put Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman, those guys in there with that group. We were divided. When I was in high school, my oldest brother and sister, they had not been a part of this, I would call the hippie generation that came in. So, they didn't do drugs at all, and they stayed pretty straight and, kind of, behind the government. Kind of with the same thoughts as my parents who were that way, too. They were kind of like the Silent Majority that Nixon talked about, people that believed the lies. But everybody under that, from my brother, Dennis, down, we all believed differently. We all believed, you know, that a lot of the government was crooked, that America was not what it was thought to be. It had a much more subtle and complicated history and present. We were part of the group that kind of challenged everything and rebelled against everything that the administration represented.

Socialmovements
Values

Fritz_John-39

LF: You talked earlier that you, sometimes, talked to your siblings about gender issues. What was the way of thinking in Boise at the time in terms of gender roles and response to the Women's Liberation Movement -- people like Betty Friedan?

Gender
Family

Fritz_John-40

JF: It was a big deal in the sixties and early seventies. You know, coming up, growing up, until about junior high, we all had the same thoughts, and they were horrible. They were the typical male-thinking of, you know, men were better than women, women had their place, which was in the home, doing chores and not being heard from, and that kind of thing. Well, that all started changing, obviously, in the sixties. Of course, my parents didn't believe in it. My mother didn't even believe in it, you know, because she was this traditional Catholic woman. They believed what the church said, which was the woman's place was in the home. Basically, the women were second [class] citizens, they were not equal. That same thinking persists today in many circles. Starting in junior high, we rejected that, totally, I had six sisters, and my sisters were not going to take that crap at all. They were not going to be second [class] citizens. So, you know, we came around to it quickly.

Gender
Change

Fritz_John-41

JF: I could never really understand, after I never really became aware of the situation in junior high, I could never understand why people thought that way. I still don't understand it, why men would think that they're better than women. The evidence, I think, points the other way. I think women are better than men. If anything, because they have much more social intelligence than men. But, anyway, besides the point, they should, at least, be equal. The Equal Rights Amendment came in in 1972 and it was great because, all of a sudden, girls could play sports like boys could and it was wonderful to see. But it, still, has been a horrible development as we've gone along. It's still not equal, it's still not the way it should be, and I wish it was different.

Gender
Change

Fritz_John-42

LF: After you graduated from BK in '72, what did you do after that?

Adulthood

Fritz_John-43

JF: Well, unfortunately, I was a victim of stupid thinking, basically. When I was sixteen and we were getting all this stuff about the war, racism, and social justice and everything, a number of us that kind of hung out together and stuff, we just, basically, said that this was not worth it. Living this traditional way of the American [life] was not worth it and we, basically, rejected it. So, when I graduated high school, I was planning on not going to college. I was just going to try and have as much fun as I could and enjoy life as much as I could and not become part of the system or the society. I was going to, basically, drop out. One of the big gurus of the time was a guy by the name of Timothy Leary, who was a professor of Harvard, was one of the early developers and testers of LSD. And his thing was tune in, turn off, and drop out - something like that. I can't remember exactly. I took that to heart, and it really was one of the worst things I ever did, was come up with that because I decided not to be part of the world when I graduated from high school. I was going to not follow the traditional path.

Adulthood

Fritz_John-44

JF: So, I was not going to go to [college], I was just going to go out and have fun, but I ended up getting a scholarship and some help from BSU to play basketball and for a science scholarship. So, I ended up going to school and played basketball for the first year. And then, I left BSU and traveled around for a while, for about a year. And then, I decided to go back to school at {The University of} Idaho. [I] Went up there and kind of just continued my education. I ended up with a Communications Bachelor's Degree because I thought about going into public relations. I worked at BSU, in BSU's Athletic Department, doing public relations, and then I went to grad school in Moscow and got a Sports Science degree. I've been in education some, and then dropped out of teaching and did landscaping for the last twenty years, twenty-five years of my life, up until now.

Adulthood

Fritz_John-45

LF: When you were growing up, it sounds to me like there was, in elementary school and junior high, you had one way of thinking and, later on, a little bit different. In both of those ways of thinking, what did you think the future would be like at that point?

[00:30:59]
Future
Childhood

Fritz_John-46

JF: Well, I didn't really think much about the future when I was young. You know, when you're a kid, you just, basically, live day to day and, for me, it was sport to sport. I played sports every season, you know, from the time I was {in} first grade until I graduated high school. For me, it really changed in the sixth grade. That was when it really changed because in the sixth grade, I had a tremendous year athletically. We won the football championship, we won the city basketball championship, and we won the baseball championship. All three that year. But, in the summer of that year, after we'd won that baseball thing, that's when I really became aware of my father's alcoholism and depression and the problems that he and my mom were having with their marriage. And kind of just becoming more aware of the way the world was, that it wasn't safe, that there was all this trouble going on in the world. So, my thinking really changed starting in junior high more to not focusing on sports so much, more on having fun and social relationships. Also, rebelling against authority. That's when that really started happening and that happened all through high school and got more and more strong in my thinking. So, by the time I was sixteen, you know, my thinking had just changed completely, as far as my attitude on the world and on society and the government and all that stuff.

Future
Values

Fritz_John-47

LF: Well, thank you for doing this today. I really appreciate it. It was great to hear your story.

White_linda

white_linda-1

Jabarii Pharms: I am Jabarii Pharms and I am interviewing Linda white a black woman that grew up in 1960s. She lived in California growing up she seen many things that still affect her till this day. I am honored to interview her because I know she has some great stories to tell.

white_linda-2

Jabarii Pharms: Today I am interviewing Linda White about how life was in the 1960s do you give consent for me to show my class this interview.

white_linda-3

Linda White : Hello Jabarii I am honored to be part of your interview and yes, I do give my full consent.

white_linda-4

JP: Where are you from?

white_linda-5

LW: I am from Stockton California

white_linda-6

JP: Do you want to describe what race you are?

white_linda-7

LW: I am a Black woman.

white_linda-8

JP: How was it growing up as a Black woman in America in 1960s?

Growing up

white_linda-9

LW: It was a fun time.

white_linda-10

JP: How was this time fun what things did you do that made it fun?

white_linda-11

LW: During this time, I was in my teenage years moving towards being an adult we had great music and I loved to party.

white_linda-12

JP: What kind of music did you listen to?

Music

white_linda-13

LW: My favorite type of music was first gospel since I am a Christian woman, but I did also listen to James badass Brown. (She said with full of excitement).

Gospel music

white_linda-14

JP: Why is gospel music so important to the black culture?

Music Culture

white_linda-15

LW: This music was just showing our appreciation for God we sang these songs for his glory. Our God helped us through so many hard times.

Gospel music

white_linda-16

JP: What is one hard time that you can remember that brought Black people together?

Music Culture

white_linda-17

LW: There is just so many memories, but I would have to say the civil rights movement. I can remember every single thing I saw that still affects me till this day.

Civil Rights

white_linda-18

What affected you?

white_linda-19

LW: The police brutality was something else police didn’t see man or women they saw either you were white or you black. My skin was lighter than other black people I hung around but wore a big afro same as them. I remember my best friend and I walking home from school she was pregnant because she had been raped by a white man. We were walking and the police stopped us asking us all sorts of question “where yawl going why yawl in this neighborhood”. We tried to answer but he didn’t believe us his partner beat me and my friend and you can clearly see she was pregnant. She lost her baby and lost herself, so she got hooked on drugs. I know not every cop is the same, but I just can’t find the way to forgive them for what they been doing to my people.

Police Brutality

white_linda-20

JP: Earlier you said you listened to James Brown why was he so popular?

Music

white_linda-21

LW: No, I said I listened to James Badass Brown. You have to make sure you add the Badass because that boy was bad. He was so groovy made us feel alive with his music despite all what was going on around us. His music was bringing awareness also about whats going on around us. Everyone was dropping out of school to work and help their families because we lived in a rough area. James’s brown got a few people to go back to school with his song “Don’t be a drop out”. I kept going with school until I needed money to help my mother. My father he was a drunk worked a factory job he was always so angry with his job he wished he could of gave us better. (Deep breath) He killed himself after my brother was killed in the war. We told him don’t go fight in that white man’s war.

Music War

white_linda-22

JP: What war was he fighting in?

War

white_linda-23

LW: He was fighting in the Vietnam war? And we were fighting the war for equal rights?

War

white_linda-24

JP: Was music coming up in 1960s made for partying or more of how people felt about civil rights?

civil Rights

white_linda-25

LW: It was made about how we felt. We tired of being mistreated we were angry. This felt like the only way we can be heard. Those artists that had the voice and fans from whites and black could have made a change.

Music

white_linda-26

JP: You said yawl wanted to be heard what kind of things did the artist talk about?

white_linda-27

LW: They talked about everything from the police to beaten up black folks to the man doing us wrong?

Music Culture

white_linda-28

JP: You said THE MAN who is the man?

white_linda-29

LW: THE MAN is the government that allows all bad stuff to happened to us black folks. THE MAN is who ever in charge putting the poison in our communities.

white_linda-30

JP: What changes have you seen as a women from 1960s till now and is it better or worse?

Change

white_linda-31

LW: Change Jesus, it so much better now have this thing caleed cameras that record everything.

white_linda-32

JP: Women are still being mistreated I feel like whats your thoughts about this?

white_linda-33

LW: I came to relize this is just the crazy world we live in. The man in this world that control this givernment will forever see houswives and that’s it.

white_linda-34

JP: Have you had experince racism in the 60s and have you experince it now?

white_linda-35

LW: I remmber saying my skin was lighter so I got teased for being light they would be mad at me. Blacks people treated me wrong times they were mad that some people would treat me different.

white_linda-36

JP: How were treated different?

white_linda-37

LW: When my brothers and sisters had to run home at times because white man would chase them with baseball bats.i could walk and say I didn’t know them just so I didn’t have to run. If I was cought lying they use to try to beat me bad but they could never break my spirit.

white_linda-38

Jp: What is a crazy experince you had to experince as a black women in America?

white_linda-39

LW: All I have to say is everyday is a crazy experince now days you see stuff on your phone and the news that is distrubbing. The kids nowdays I feel bad for what they future holds.

white_linda-40

JP: Well thank you Linda White for doing this interview is there anything else you have to say?

white_linda-41

LW: Thank you, Jabarii I am so greatful to be able to share my experince. I just want to say a change is coming the world.

Peterson_nancy

Peterson_Nancy-1

Emme Dibble: My name is Emme Dibble, the date is September 23rd and I'm here with Nancy Ruth Peterson. Alright, my first question is just kind of, what music and artists did you listen to primarily during the 60s?

music
culture

Peterson_Nancy-2

Nancy Ruth Peterson: Well, I started life in college as a music major

Peterson_Nancy-3

ED: Oh

Peterson_Nancy-4

NRP: So, where everybody else is listening to Elvis and The Beatles, I was doing Bache and Beethoven. So, I like The Moody Blues who else I don't know that's a hard qustion for me.

music

Peterson_Nancy-5

ED: I just got a record of a The Moody Blues

Peterson_Nancy-6

NRP: Oh yeah

Peterson_Nancy-7

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-8

NRP: but yeah, I was sort of the outlier I guess

Peterson_Nancy-9

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-10

NRP: Some Broadway things like the Fantasticks which was a musical that was very good very interesting very fun very much a sort of I guess Cinderella story but yeah that's a hard question for me to answer because I can't even tell you what well Hey Jude and some of the classics but I can't tell you what they were even singing, I do remember watching the Ed Sullivan show when they were on which was crazy because when they got to New York people just went nuts and it was a huge police presence to try and control the crowds you know it was amazing but that was television stuff so

music
culture

Peterson_Nancy-11

ED: Yeah

Peterson_Nancy-12

NRP: I don't know I'm not good on that one

Peterson_Nancy-13

ED: no that's awesome did you continue studying did you say?

Peterson_Nancy-14

NRP: I, sort of, yeah, I as a hobby more than anything

Peterson_Nancy-15

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-16

NRP: but yeah, I dropped out of as a major became IR an English major

education

Peterson_Nancy-17

ED: Ah okay cool

Peterson_Nancy-18

NRP: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-19

ED: What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War, and did it change how you felt about America, or was it super prevalent?

vietnam
socialmovements
change

Peterson_Nancy-20

NRP: It was, we watched it on tv. So, it was a constant presence I guess you would say. Certainly, the first time we were all seeing it. Here, hah, in our little world, it was less, you know the protests and stuff were less prevalent here than in cities, but I was trying to think, the Navy building was burned, and I think the football stadium

news
culture

Peterson_Nancy-21

ED: Oh wow

Peterson_Nancy-22

NRP: It was an arson fire, but I can't remember when those were, but I would guess in the sixties

Peterson_Nancy-23

ED: Yeah

Peterson_Nancy-24

NRP: The Navy building for sure and it was where, I don't know what's there now when you go up the hill past the engineering buildings

Peterson_Nancy-25

ED: mm

Peterson_Nancy-26

NRP: it was kind of right there and it was a wooden structure. I don't know what's there

Peterson_Nancy-27

ED: I think there might be a newer building there honestly

Peterson_Nancy-28

NRP: I think so and it was sort of by where Brink Hall and those buildings are but they have since moved I think over to old haze I think or some place.

Peterson_Nancy-29

ED: yeah, I'm not sure

Peterson_Nancy-30

NRP: yeah, I don't, and they combined with Washington state and it's a whole different ball game there were some protests here probably Moscow is more politically active now than maybe it was then. Or I may just not be aware. I graduated from high school in '63 graduated from college at '67 started at my first job in '67 and you know my world was occupied

socialmovements
change
culture

Peterson_Nancy-31

ED: You were kind of building your life during the 60s

childhood
adulthood

Peterson_Nancy-32

NRP: Right the one thing, the protests in 68 in Chicago, at the Democratic Convention.

socialmovements
change
culture

Peterson_Nancy-33

ED: was that like one of the biggest?

Peterson_Nancy-34

NRP: yeah, and reporters were arrested on the floor of the convention it's like really what are you doing and that was certainly a stark indication of where the country was going. we think we're divided now it was really divided then you know it was amazing

change
culture
war

Peterson_Nancy-35

ED: I have people compare it a lot nowadays to times now

Peterson_Nancy-36

NRP: Yeah, yeah

Peterson_Nancy-37

ED: Do you feel like its not nearly the same do you think we are heading the same kind of I don't know, is it similar?

Peterson_Nancy-38

NRP: its similar in some ways but that was an I don't know quite how to say this without being really political whether that was an idealistic war or not, this was not our war why were we there why were we intervening in somebody but you know it was also communism that we were fighting but I think seeing it on television, seeing the body bags, made people more aware we hadn't been in a war since the Korean conflict which was a police action technically not a war, now, we're divided by one person who is leading what I would consider to be almost a cult and lying whereas then it was sort of a broader picture [Future, communism]

change
news
future

Peterson_Nancy-39

ED: yeah okay

Peterson_Nancy-40

NRP: now you know my political

Peterson_Nancy-41

ED: Ha-ha no thank you

Peterson_Nancy-42

NRP: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-43

ED: are there any other big moments like that that you remember or maybe changed like your views, your families', or just like the town? or was everybody kind of

Peterson_Nancy-44

NRP: things just kind of spun along here of course President Kennedy was killed, I don't know exactly what else I think people became far more that was probably at the beginning of the political activism in this town and Moscow is pretty politically active

change
culture
socialmovements

Peterson_Nancy-45

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-46

NRP: Has always been sort of or is more liberal than a lot of the rest of the state even with our conservative church influence here it's still a liberal town and that may have started them yeah

Peterson_Nancy-47

ED: Was there any connection with like the students?

Peterson_Nancy-48

NRP: yeah, and I think the students became far more aware of politics and what was going on and you know the world at large we were, had been sort of I don't know quiet I guess and that ended I honestly don't remember any like student protests or anything but there again I may have just been oblivious too, I was in my happy little place doing my happy little thing and [change, culture]

Peterson_Nancy-49

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-50

NRP: yeah so, I don't know... the decade certainly changed many things with the assassinations which we haven't had since thank goodness. It was interesting to me that you're doing the 60s I thought oh I get it all right yeah you know oh good, and 68 seemed to be the high watermark there were all kinds of things going on at 68 which I don't know I can't even remember everything but good job picking that time I don't know if it was you or your professor

Peterson_Nancy-51

ED: It was our professor, our class is surrounded around, it's called The Long 1960's

Peterson_Nancy-52

NRP: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-53

ED: Yeah, and I'm actually not in history I just I like the 60s

Peterson_Nancy-54

NRP: it is interesting yeah

Peterson_Nancy-55

ED: Yeah so, much change

Peterson_Nancy-56

NRP: yeah, yeah and you think about the fashions and the interior design and all of those things that you walk into a house, and you go oh this is lost in the 60s you know, and it could be the 50s could be the 70s but it's the 60s we blame yeah its interesting.

Peterson_Nancy-57

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-58

NRP: Yeah

Peterson_Nancy-59

ED: do you think we've had any like to the same extent cultural shifts since?

Peterson_Nancy-60

NRP: oh, I think we're having one right now, yeah.

Peterson_Nancy-61

ED: in the same way or?

Peterson_Nancy-62

NRP: In some ways the same way in some ways that was a shift to more and I don't know that you could say liberal but certainly more awareness and more involvement and um because of the war because of even things like the Bay of pigs and that were reported a lot more significantly we still didn't know the private lives of our leaders. Kennedy obviously was not a monogamist man but that was not reported in the news like it would be now I think now the shift is toward conservatism that we don't want to pay taxes we don't want to have anybody telling us what to do we want to and I I was a longtime teacher and the fact that people are going to school board meetings and saying to trained educators you don't know what you're doing here is what you need to teach my kid or what you can't teach my kid and those things critical race theory to my knowledge I taught for 38 years I never taught critical race theory and I don't suppose anybody is yet but people think they are and therefore they're going to protest and they're going to say you can't do this and if you do we're taking our kids out and you know so I think the shift and maybe it's the highs and lows the yoyo thing of what we all do highs and lows the yoyo saying of what we all do what we all go through

future
culture

Peterson_Nancy-63

ED: yeah, do you remember any wide scale book bans like we're seeing in Idaho today?

Peterson_Nancy-64

NRP: No, nope and in fact you know if we occasionally had the librarian who would tell a kid that you can't check out that book what I would be to march my fat self, down to the library and check it out and hand it to the kid and there was no comeback like I was an adult, but that was one little minor thing you know. Yeah, the banning of books just gives me the chills

childhood
future

Peterson_Nancy-65

ED: me too

Peterson_Nancy-66

NRP: and we need to teach people how to think you can't spoon feed them the party line that haven't drank the Kool-Aid and then expect them to function in a further society and maybe one of the big things is the shift toward laptops cell phones my phones in my purse you know and we're so dependent on all of this we're constantly bombarded with information or entertainment or each other or whatever if we don't talk to each other. I walked down the hall of the school where I used to teach and I don't remember I don't know why it was even there it was after I had retired and it was lunchtime and there was a circle of kids in the hall sitting on the floor and they were all on their phones you know thumbs going and I said what are you doing and they said we're talking to each other, they were texting each other they were sitting next to each other

values
future
family

Peterson_Nancy-67

ED: how old were they?

Peterson_Nancy-68

NRP: They were 14-15, I was appalled you are here use your voices!

Peterson_Nancy-69

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-70

NRP: yeah, but there you go

Peterson_Nancy-71

ED: this isn't one of my we've kind of gone through this is a little extra if you want to answer it

Peterson_Nancy-72

NRP: sure

Peterson_Nancy-73

ED: I took a mindfulness class a couple weeks ago actually and it had me thinking when I was thinking about questions for this meeting just kind of was there like a certain level of presence in daily life that people had that just isn't, I don't know I think we have a lot of trouble communicating with each other and I don't know

Peterson_Nancy-74

NRP: well and I think that's part of the going back to being able to think instead of somebody on my phone telling me what I should say or do or be thinking about I had to do it myself, and therefore its more difficult certainly but good grief I worry about kids. For one thing I'm afraid that we're all raising a generation of deaf people because of the volume of their headphones and their earbuds and of course you know kids are you guys are immortal and you don't realize, and I didn't either I'm not pointing fingers because I didn't either but you don't realize long term consequences of some of these things and we have no idea what the long term consequences of all this technology are. It will be interesting I won't be around to see it, but it will be interesting.

childhood
culture
change

Peterson_Nancy-75

ED: Was, in terms of environmental problems like the awareness was that anything that sparked or is that kind of a new?

Peterson_Nancy-76

NRP: here that's interesting that you bring that up because we were very aware of Panford and the radioactivity and radiation emissions and we grew up basically drinking irradiated milk if you think about it because they would release the radiation it would fall, the cows would eat the grass that it was on you know and I in my high school class all of them grew up here there are at least three with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and whether that could be directly related or not but certainly the government unities for people with cancers and things to seek reparation there medical issues but three out of a class of 120 is pretty high percentage really there have been certainly other classmates who died of various cancers but whether any of it could be related to that so that was our big environmental issue which now is you know past they buried a lot of that figuratively and literally over there. But as and then the spray plants going over of course and you have experienced that living here we were always aware of that you know we did not run to them we ran from them if we saw somebody about to dump their load on a nearby wheatfield and when I was a kid certainly and in the 60s the wheat fields were far closer to my house than they are now because of the expansion of the 10th and East

socialmovements

Peterson_Nancy-77

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-78

NRP: so, a little bit of that, climate change as a global issue I don't think was anything that we had thought about

Peterson_Nancy-79

ED: are there any just like maybe whole values like of the general community that changed throughout the time or was a kind of more like did it bring people together at the end?

Peterson_Nancy-80

NRP: yeah I think it did the interesting thing about Moscow is that the community, see my family was involved in the business community and the university community and I'm thinking no professors and so forth and so on it has always meshed pretty well with the business community better than a lot of small college towns if you look 6 miles West that has been more of a separate business and academic community and not come together but I don't think that particularly changed unless perhaps they separated a bit more than they used to be but at this point I'm not terribly involved in the social part of that so I don't know

Peterson_Nancy-81

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-82

NRP: Here, we are in the Historical Society we're still very much a combination of academics and businesspeople and tradespeople you know retirees mostly.

Peterson_Nancy-83

ED: So this didn't come out till I want to say the late 70s to the public but project MK ultra, are you aware of when the government was doing project MK ultra it was like the LSD testing on they were testing with different

Peterson_Nancy-84

Peterson_Nancy-85

ED: it was like volunteers I read a book from Ken Kesey, the one who wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Peterson_Nancy-86

NRP: oh yeah pardon my nose

Peterson_Nancy-87

ED: you're alright that time of year

Peterson_Nancy-88

NRP: fall, I don't have covid

Peterson_Nancy-89

ED: ha-ha I believe you, that's what got me into the 60's I read One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and then I read The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test about Ken Kesey and his life but I don't think information was released to the public until a couple decades after.

Peterson_Nancy-90

NRP: No interesting

Peterson_Nancy-91

ED: are there were there any just like favorite parts, clothing, books about the 60s that you missed or just loved

Peterson_Nancy-92

NRP: Of course, I was an English major so I was reading classics mostly and Ann Rand who is a very conservative author fascinated me probably about that time maybe a little later before that Jack Kerouac On The Road the whole kind of hippie dippy groovy thing, George Karl oh and to go back to music which I guess I could do I really liked progressive jazz felonious monk and some of that genre was more interesting to me than the popular pop stuff there's a reason why all Hampton was involved in Moscow because of the jazz great love of jazz in this town Jazz Festival was huge and just starting then, so interesting the co-op I don't know exactly when that started but it started as a little tiny kind of a hole in the wall place down on 3rd St and you walk in and there were great burlap bags of lentils and split peas and beans and things open and with scoops in it and you just open with scoops in it and you just scoop some out, put in not a plastic bag for sure paper bag and that has grown huge it's huge yeah there's two places now

culture
sociallife
music

Peterson_Nancy-93

ED: yeah there's Even

Peterson_Nancy-94

NRP: one on the campus

Peterson_Nancy-95

ED: Yeah, I have yet to walk in there but yeah Ive been meaning to. Moscow is interesting, at least to me it has always been so different from the rest of Idaho

Peterson_Nancy-96

NRP: The state hah

Peterson_Nancy-97

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-98

NRP: and other places wish they had a co-op. I ran into my cousins son and his wife on Saturday at the market and they were here for the ball game from boise and they come early so they can go to the Saturday market because really you don't have a farmers market in boise? Well Boise you know its not like this one.

sociallife
culture

Peterson_Nancy-99

ED: Its true its not like this one

Peterson_Nancy-100

So its we have our little traditions that we hang onto so:

Peterson_Nancy-101

ED: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-102

NRP: Yeah were sort of sitting here in a relic of the past.

Peterson_Nancy-103

ED: yeah I love this building I was showing my mom I was sending her pictures of the outside of the mansion

Peterson_Nancy-104

NRP: oh yeah

Peterson_Nancy-105

ED: when you were pulling up she also super into all of this

Peterson_Nancy-106

NRP: what year in school are you

Peterson_Nancy-107

ED: Im a junior so this is my third year

Peterson_Nancy-108

NRP: so you've acclimated to all this goofiness here

Peterson_Nancy-109

ED: yeah I want to say although I still kind of feel like this is my first real year with how things were with COVID yeah so still learning

Peterson_Nancy-110

NRP: right it's a lot different to go to class with other people than to sit at a computer at zoom now

Peterson_Nancy-111

ED: or not able to really talk with anyone 'cause you're saying so far away if you are in person

Peterson_Nancy-112

NRP: but what would we have done without that which would colleges and universities just shut down

Peterson_Nancy-113

ED: I don't know

Peterson_Nancy-114

NRP: I don't know either schools it's interesting to think about that too

Peterson_Nancy-115

I did see something interesting though in New York how they said we don't need any more snow days NRP: right exactly

Peterson_Nancy-116

ED: that kind of

Peterson_Nancy-117

NRP: I used to love snow day

Peterson_Nancy-118

ED: yeah that like broke my heart

Peterson_Nancy-119

NRP: What are you doing to these poor kids.

Peterson_Nancy-120

ED: Oh my gosh don't even get a snow day but

Peterson_Nancy-121

NRP: yeah

Peterson_Nancy-122

ED: Yeah even just the extension of that that's

Peterson_Nancy-123

NRP: well it's in the 50s we were dealing with the polio whole thing and but school was never canceled certainly for that and it wasn't as, it was a little more random I guess but certainly as dangerous people had their whole lives affected we talked about long COVID I've still got a couple of acquaintances that are on still use crutches because of their polio you know so it's not the first pandemic but and certainly won't be the last but and I don't know you know did we overreact did we under react should we have acted sooner should how do you know I don't know

Peterson_Nancy-124

ED: I don't know who does

Peterson_Nancy-125

NRP: and there again there were as many different opinions on that as there are people so it's crazy but I'm glad you're back at school back on the campus and doing the campus thing

Peterson_Nancy-126

ED: yeah I absolutely love it

Peterson_Nancy-127

NRP: did you go to the what was going on yesterday?

Peterson_Nancy-128

ED: The Borah Symposium?

Peterson_Nancy-129

NRP: Well and there was something that my Rotary friends were popping kettle corn on the campus there was music maybe up by the library or something

Peterson_Nancy-130

ED: I think I remember seeing a couple stands of student things I don't know yeah, I'm not sure what that was but the Boris symposium I meant to go to last night that's happening still next week

Peterson_Nancy-131

NRP: yeah, that goes on for a while and that's great of course Governor Borah or Senator Borah governor not senator had a connection to this house because he was married to one of the McConnell daughters

Peterson_Nancy-132

ED: oh wow

Peterson_Nancy-133

NRP: yeah, he was married to Mamie so

ED: that's crazy

NRP: yeah,

ED: Small world

NRP: probably the most influential Idaho politician ever and the next would be for church I guess I think Jim rush would like to think but he doesn't have the stature of the other two, he's chair of the Foreign Relations Committee which was what Borah was but that was during the war, World War Two so. For a small state we've had some powerful politicians national politicians

change
news

Peterson_Nancy-138

ED: Like Borah?

Peterson_Nancy-139

NRP: Borah and Church or the two that come to mind certainly and McConnell was the first US senator from Idaho and governor of Idaho but I keep looking over there cause there used to be a portrait of the man Idaho Historical society decided they wanted it back well it's theirs and they didn't have it they have portraits of all the governors and they didn't have him so Mr. McConnell went South so to speak

Peterson_Nancy-140

ED: ha-ha dang, I think that is all of my questions, but is there anything else important that you'd like to share?

Peterson_Nancy-141

NRP: I can't think of anything in particular, it was an interesting time to be alive that's for sure

culture

Peterson_Nancy-142

ED: Yeah, the days seem different

Peterson_Nancy-143

NRP: Yeah, yeah you never knew quite what was going to happen. Yeah, I think we're good

Peterson_Nancy-144

ED: Alright, thank you so much for talking with me

Ballensky_leroy

Ballensky_Leroy-1

Hailey Ocapan: I'm going to name off some things so participation in this project is voluntary you may withdraw from the project or in the interview at any time duration of the interview will vary up to 60 minutes follow up interviews may be requested or voluntary the interview will be recorded and transcribed a copy each will be made available to you the recording of the interview may contain material to which you will have copyright transcripts will be available to entire class for research purposes the University of Idaho students faculty and staff as well as researchers visiting special collection and archives may use the interview for any research the University of Idaho library will preserve the interview and transcript the interview will be made publicly accessible through UI library for scholarly historical purposes including potential through its website and do you agree to those terms

Ballensky_Leroy-2

Leroy Ballensky: Yes I do

Ballensky_Leroy-3

HO: Perfect ok so Leroy what year were you born in?

Ballensky_Leroy-4

LB: 1947

Ballensky_Leroy-5

HO: perfect so my first question for you is what music or artists were you listening to in the 60s?

music

Ballensky_Leroy-6

LB: in the 60s oh all kinds of em like what you call those like when you're 16 years old you're beautiful and you're mine and like purple people eater and a lot of em old songs like that back in the 60s can't remember em all

music

Ballensky_Leroy-7

HO: do you sorry I'm sorry

Ballensky_Leroy-8

LB: go ahead

Ballensky_Leroy-9

HO: do you think music was primarily about partying or about social social change?

music

Ballensky_Leroy-10

LB: well we didn't party much back in them days 'cause we was trying to survive then but when I was back in the 60s as a teenager and I tell you a good little story about my sister and I that one time I was out hunting with a buddy of mine after I came back from hunting I went home my dad told me I had to go down to the jail and get my sister out and I went down to jailhouse that guy asked me where my parents were and I told them that they they're not gonna come down far as their concern she can rot in here so he's decided ask him I could talk to her so I talked to her and it was dark I couldn't even see her in the room so after I came got done talking to her I went down there and I asked him and he says your parents won't come down I say no they they won't they don't care and so he says well you come back tomorrow and I'll talk to you and I said OK so next day I went down there and he told me well I'm gonna have you custody of your sister if anything happened she ain't gonna be here next time she's gonna be in a girls reformatory which was a prison camp kind of for girls and and so he says I'm gonna let you it's gonna be your responsibility to take care of her I says I will so he let her out and I told her don't you ever do that again as we get in trouble like that because they're gonna send you away and you know mom and dad don't care whatever happens to us so she said OK so few months went by I working over in Boulder Montana on a quadrille outfit then and my sister come over there and she asked me that my mom and dad want to see me so I went over and back home that weekend and my mother asked me she says I heard you were leaving us yeah she says can you take your sister with you well I guess I can I had a 1957 Ford then

music
survive

Ballensky_Leroy-11

LB: I bought for $300 back in them days their run pretty good and so when we left Boulder city my job I had it moved down to Creek Colorado and I oughta keep my job I had to follow em down I had to pay for my own trip down there my sister with me I had one of my last check I got I have pay part of the rent out of that and I only had like $20 to go down in Colorado which which there's about 1200 miles so this guy I was working with named Bob ream he was the driller and I was his helper and they call it so I went ahead and we went to he went to see his parents before we hit down Colorado so we went over to Roundup Montana that's where his parents lived so after we got there he we all went out Rabbit hunting him and his brother and his dad and I we all came back and he's showing how he could do a quick drama draw used to be a cartoon with that pistol when he put his pistol on his holster went off and the bullet went right under his skin down to his knee so we had to rush him to the hospital now of course you know the cops they got involved in it and they ask what happened so we told what happened so he had to spend like two months at home before he can go down to the job well I cant hang around there so I told my had to leave ask me how much money I had and I told him $20 he gave me another $10 my sister and I head on down the Colorado we drove all day and all night brought us snacks here and there and I put my last dollar in gas in center Colorado in which creed was about 30 miles from there so when we got to creed there wasn't a place to be had to rent because it's a construction company and then they rented everything out so

Ballensky_Leroy-12

LB: I try and get ahold of my boss see if I get some money they to eat on and stuff and I couldn't find him so that night my sister and I drove out to creed a little bit out by the dump her and I slept in the car for a couple of nights and we went back in town I found my boss and asked him if there's any way I can get some money so we can eat on so he asked he said well our company don't do that so he done it anyway and they advanced me some money and then when by the time we got there when there's someplace a house we could rent and I asked the guy that owned that house he had a store and it was a big cabin so my sister and I rented that out so her and I were standing there that's where she met her husband Pete and then going up there up to Butte got married and finally they were happily after you know that finally he passed away not too long ago so that's where my sister met her husband but we had some good times and we used go to the movies and stuff and that's where I met my first wife in Creed and we all used to go to the drive in and stuff like that and when we coming home from the drive-in I had some tires in my trunk which is just the car up and head lights were blinding off onto on-coming traffic is the state patrolman and I didn't have driver's license

Ballensky_Leroy-13

LB: but Pete did but they didn't have pictures of him on there so I told Pete give me your driver's license on the way to butte on their honeymoon if they got on a passing the patrolman stopped Pete and ask him what was going on cause he kept swinging having lazy eye and he ask that cop he says shh he couldn't hear his motor right he had some kind of noise and motor so he took petes license down and everything and send them on well when he got up to Butte he came back and I am and when we went to the driving one time had some tires in the trunk and this cop pulled us me over I told Pete give me your driver's license Pete so he gave me his driver's license and that cop wanted to see my driver's license he asked me get outside and I showed him my driver's license he looked at me and then he shined a light back there in the backseat and there's Gale and Pete he says didn't I stop you before yeah you stop me up on the pass I had a 58 Blue Chevy then he says what are you doing with this car well that chevy blew up in Butte and I bought this one and I cannot well what you got in the trunk and I said some tires I open the trunk she's well when you get home you take them tires out he says cause you're blinding everybody said OK so that's one incident we got by without getting caught that was pretty funny back and them days so yeah we had some good times then.

Ballensky_Leroy-14

HO: That's good

Ballensky_Leroy-15

LB: and I could tell you another episode when I was 18 just turned 18 yeah go down to the selected service to sign up for the service

Ballensky_Leroy-16

HO: oh yeah grandpa that actually leads me to my second question and it was what were your thoughts on the Vietnam War? Vietnam

Ballensky_Leroy-17

LB: Vietnam War

Ballensky_Leroy-18

HO: Yeah

Ballensky_Leroy-19

LB: well I thought it was kind of crazy then you know 'cause I I think we didn't have no business there you know but at that time when a wars going on they were drafting or getting a bunch of these young kids that were underage in there so when I turn 18 I went down to the sign up for the service now would have been in that war no doubt but she told me I needed a birth certificates and I did not have a birth certificate so she says well we can't sign you up until you get a birth certificate because there finding like 16 and 15 year old boys over there that they lied about their age they need a birth certificate I told them the only thing I had was the church certificate when I first went to church and they wouldn't accept so I said ok so I went on with my life and got married had one girl then and I was living down there in creed and my mom called me one night and she says hey lee there's FBI up here looking for yeah and I says what yeah they were here so I said OK so the next day I went went to the selective service there in creed told em that woman what happened so she made me out a draft card so I took it home two days later I heard a knock it is about 11:00 o'clock at night I heard a knock and my wife ex-wife then was at her sister's house and I was babysitting my kid Nora and

Ballensky_Leroy-20

LB: I opened the door and this guy flashes a badge we're the FBI and we want to talk to you Mr. Ballensky said yes I am so I told him come on in answered two of em sat there at the table with me and asking me questions are you trying to dodge the service I said no I'M not trying to dodge the service I went so sign up now woman would not sign me up in Butte because I didn't have her birth certificate so she and so I flashed this card out that that selective service made out from me and he says where did you get that and I told him about that woman there in Creed made it out for me and she told me if you got any questions go talk to her about it and they said OK they talked a little bit my ex-wife come home and she is yelling them wondering what's going on I told just never mind just be quiet and she kept butting and finally they were leaving they say well Mr. Ballensky only thing we can do is let the army know what's going on and it up to them I say hey if they want draft me I'm fine with it I got one little kid but they want me go on the service I go I'm not running from it and so they said OK so about a week later I got a letter in the mail from the United states army stating that they could not find a birth certificate whatsoever of me in Bismarck North Dakota 'cause I was born in North Dakota and they could not find a birth certificate see I was born at home so was my other sister we both were born at home and the doctor didn't make out a certificate or nothing when we was born so only witness I had was my aunt so I got to open that letter and they state and that's what they said they could not find a birth certificate at me whatsoever and I never heard another word from the army after that so my sister-in-law she lived up there in Denver Colorado and she came down one weekend I told her about it and she said she could give me a birth certificate so she went back up Denver she sent me one down and I had to send it to my folks and they fill everything out and a witness and all that and that's where I got my birth certificate now so that's what happened

music
survive

Ballensky_Leroy-21

HO: I'm glad you have your birth certificate now

Ballensky_Leroy-22

LB: yes I do

Ballensky_Leroy-23

HO: did the Vietnam War change how you felt about America as a global leader?

vietnam

Ballensky_Leroy-24

LB: What Hun

Ballensky_Leroy-25

HO: did the Vietnam War change how you felt about America?

Ballensky_Leroy-26

LB: What I like about America

Ballensky_Leroy-27

HO: Did the Vietnam War change how you felt about America? V

vietnam

Ballensky_Leroy-28

LB: did it Change

Ballensky_Leroy-29

HO: yeah

Ballensky_Leroy-30

LB: well no I don't think it changed the American that much everything kinda just stayed the same you know your gas and your grocery everything it's just like people went on with their lives that were in America

vietnam

Ballensky_Leroy-31

HO: What social movements were you aware of during your time in the 60s?

socialmovements

Ballensky_Leroy-32

LB: What honey

Ballensky_Leroy-33

HO: What social movements were you aware of during the times of the 60s

Ballensky_Leroy-34

LB: What social movements

Ballensky_Leroy-35

HO: Yeah like the civil rights movement like

socialmovements

Ballensky_Leroy-36

LB: You know I really didn't know that much about that you know their movements around in those 60s everything seemed to be going so good everybody seemed to be happy back in them days there wasn't hardly anything going on you know and everybody is just enjoying their life then gas was cheap cars was cheap everything was cheap back in them days and you didn't have to have a high school diploma to find a job when you go find they had a sign up you need or they needed someone they hired ya without any education

socialmovements

Ballensky_Leroy-37

HO: where were you growing up sorry?

Ballensky_Leroy-38

LB: they were happy

Ballensky_Leroy-39

HO: and where were you growing up during this time?

Ballensky_Leroy-40

LB: what's that

Ballensky_Leroy-41

HO: where were you during the 60s?

Ballensky_Leroy-42

LB: see I was up in Roosevelt drive when I was younger in my days the Berkeley pit we used to live in meaderville merk they call it in Butte and the Berkeley pit started drawing and few years later they start buying our little town out meaderville merk because they were dumping all there waste behind people's houses while we had a big rock come down on our house and then the garage and that's when my dad called them and they came down they looked at and bought my dad out because we were the only house in that whole block the only house and my dad held on until that happened and they finally gave him what he wanted for his house then he bought 20 acres out of Butte up in the Highlands they call it roosevelt drive and during my years up there and that's where we kind of grew up there we move down there six mile view cuz we got tired of the snow and everything up there so we bought 10 acres at six mile view and my dad was an alcoholic so he drank most everything out so we didn't have much of anything and we didn't get to school very much at all when we lived up there cuz we were always snowed in and so then we had to log and support my dad a lot of times 'cause he didn't wanna work so us kids had to go out loggin and make the money so we could survive so we miss a lot of school didn't get much education so we've done the best we could until we moved down into Butte and my dad finally went to work the mines that's where my older brother got drafted in the army and then we moved into town into Butte and that's when I got me a job at a little store there in Butte Peterson brothers they called it and I worked for them until I got me a job over in Boulder city there as a core driller helper and that's where everything ended there from there on I went down to Colorado

childhood
draft

Ballensky_Leroy-43

HO: so you mentioned how you weren't really that much aware of like the civil rights movement during that time do you have any like did your parents talk about it at all or?

socialmovements

Ballensky_Leroy-44

LB: Did my parents do what honey

Ballensky_Leroy-45

HO: about like the civil rights movement did you know your did you know your parents opinion at all?

Ballensky_Leroy-46

LB: no no they didn't talk about it much at all the movement as they were from Russia you know that they didn't know how to talk English very good my mom my dad did but not my mom so they didn't talk about it much we was up there in in Roosevelt drive so we kind of was out of the way from it seemed like all that you know we didn't have we didn't get to watch TV 'cause we didn't have no power back there where we lived at back carry seam lamps and outhouse and a well you have to carry water from up to the house and so we didn't we just kinda hanging up there kinda lived alone all the time and the only time we ever had any fun is when we get all the neighbors that lived up there in the hills with us around the mountains up there we all get together like on a weekend one time and we play baseball and that's how we got to know the kids of course riding school bus to school and back all the time but sometimes you know I really loved it up there it was pretty had 20 acres up in the mountains with trees and closest neighbor was a mile from yeah and we had a little pond called criminals pond above our house up their ways and we hike up there my brother and I and then we would go fishing in that pond up there and that was a lot of fun we had a lot of fun their I really enjoyed living up in that country there it was beautiful in the winter and summer

survival

Ballensky_Leroy-47

HO: did you have any like diversity in your community where you grew up in in the 60s?

diversity

Ballensky_Leroy-48

LB: have what honey

diversity

Ballensky_Leroy-49

HO: any diversity

diversity

Ballensky_Leroy-50

LB: do you mean like what food

diversity

Ballensky_Leroy-51

HO: like people like different cultures or anything

Ballensky_Leroy-52

LB: Yeah we didn't have hardly any people coming around up there our neighbors come visit little bit but like actually it's you know really good friends that you can hang around and everything and we all us kids sisters and brothers used to stick around together all the time that's who we got to play with was each other if want to play baseball or something we go out in our little field we never had hardly any friends or anybody come up there visit us or nothing

diversity

Ballensky_Leroy-53

HO: how would you describe yourself in the 60s?

values

Ballensky_Leroy-54

LB: myself

Ballensky_Leroy-55

HO: yes

Ballensky_Leroy-56

LB: well myself you know I wasn't about myself that much I guess is just we was trying to survive and and sometimes I was upset you know that I couldn't be smarter and had the education 'cause I want to play sports and my dad wouldn't let me and I didn't have the grades to get into play sports and I you know I kinda regret not having that and I missed it actually I didn't have much of a childhood or teenage hood we've always seem to struggle and fight for our lives every day when we was living up there

values
education

Ballensky_Leroy-57

HO: yeah what kind of education did you get? Education

Ballensky_Leroy-58

LB: I went far as the 9th grade is I didn't graduate high school because I didn't have enough credit so I dropped out after 9th grade I dropped out of school but when I starting school in meaderville about 6 years old we had a first grade teacher named Miss sorcell and she was a really mean teacher and sometimes during the day I would sleep in class and she put a note on my shirt and send me home and it said that I needed to go to bed early or something 'cause I sleeping in school well they never did wanna help me through school because when I got to junior high school all I done if I didn't cause any disturbing in the class or anything they would pass me onto the next grade and that's the way it went through clean-up to junior high school and one time when we was reading I didn't even know how to read in junior high when the teacher had each one of us read when they came to my turn I was scared and I was embarrassed I didn't know the teachers skip me and he told the kid behind me to read he said it's his turn he says why he says he's only here half the time so he don't know what's going on but in the first grade when the teacher had me to read and I didn't know how and she says why should he wanna learn all he's gonna do is become a miner like his dad so he don't need the education and so she never called on me for anything who really taught me about adding and subtracting was my older brother he taught me how to do that because the teacher didn't wanna take any time out to teach me so when I went to school and we had some adding I knew how to add them and all of a suddenly I got like a B on my paper and she thought I was cheating and she say how did you know that my brother taught me how to do this and after that I did good as far in adding and subtracting and that was it

education

Ballensky_Leroy-59

HO: well I'm glad you showed her

Ballensky_Leroy-60

LB: yeah she's supposed to be our teacher and she didn't even bother you know because my dad was a miner and she figured that's all I was gonna be us minors didn't need education cuz all we done is go in the ground and get the ore out but the people don't realize miners when they go in the ground get that are out that silver and gold and copper and iron and all other kinds of minerals that the car that there driving is made out of that metal that us miners put out risk our lives for and your pens your computers all your cameras everything you can imagine do with metal miners done that and if it wasn't for the miners they wouldn't have had all this stuff like silver they use silver and cameras and they needed that silver and if they didn't have it they wouldn't have no cameras so you know that they figured miner were just trashy people you know and when I become a miner you know that was surviving trying to support my family

Ballensky_Leroy-61

HO: yeah it's a scary job too

Ballensky_Leroy-62

LB: at least I raised them until they were 18

Ballensky_Leroy-63

HO: OK grandpa I have one final question for you

Ballensky_Leroy-64

LB: Okay

Ballensky_Leroy-65

HO: what major historical events do you remember hearing about the most during the 60s?

news

Ballensky_Leroy-66

LB: which Harry which was that

Ballensky_Leroy-67

HO: during the 60s a lot of it was the war in Vietnam you heard that a lot and other than that you know I didn't hear much then you know 'cause like I said we was up in the mountains so we didn't get no TV or radio so we didn't hear much of anything then what we did here was most of Vietnam or you know when we was living up there the only TV we got for my brother and I would walk to our neighbor which was about a mile from our house him and I would walk to their house watch TV there and we was all excited got to watch TV there and this is in the winter time snow was up to our knees and him and I had a light that we had we we watch tv when it was time to go home which it was dark so we walk all way back home through that snow and cold it was below 0 when we walk all the way home and you know just so we can watch TV

news

Ballensky_Leroy-68

HO: what kind of TV would you watch?

media

Ballensky_Leroy-69

LB: it was black and white TV that they had

media

Ballensky_Leroy-70

HO: any specific show or movie

media

Ballensky_Leroy-71

LB: Yeah they had some movies on there a lot it was like western shows you know stuff like that Walt Disney them kind of shows we used to watch our neighbors used to tell us what kind of movie would be on so my brother and I we would come up there and watch it on their TV

media

Ballensky_Leroy-72

HO: Back I'm sorry grandpa

Ballensky_Leroy-73

LB: but you know that we could've had power back there Montana pole company back there in Butte ask my dad if we wanted power back to our house and he told him no and This is why you cut all the trees out to make that line to go back to your house that would pay more than enough to put the power back there but my dad would not do it because it would interfere with buying his booze then so my poor mom I feel sorry for especially when it came to washing our clothes 'cause she used to have a tub outside two tubs one to wash the clothes in and then the old hand wringer that she crank and the clothes go through it and I'd be on the other side grabbing them putting them in that tub for her and then we was really moving up my dad bought an old washing machine and had a motor on it crank it to get it started in the winter time that snow gets under my poor mom try its paddle that you have to stand on push down and get it started am my poor mom she would do that and it's her foot would slip off and skar up her poor legs from it and cut her legs up so I try to do and use both my foot on the paddle and try to push down and I wasn't heavy enough to push down on that paddle to get it started and then finally my older brother come in and he get started for her but my dad was just mean he was mean to us kids when he is an alcoholic you know he just takes everything away from your life so us kids we just done the best we could that we had and what we known but I like the 60s like I said you know we had there's of things that we're always cheap from your groceries your gas and your cars in Butte there a lot of things were going on and you see lot of the kids playing around down there and stuff like that everybody seems happy and and it was fun then you know

media

Ballensky_Leroy-74

HO: yeah do you remember the assassination of John F Kennedy?

assassination

Ballensky_Leroy-75

LB: Yes I do it was really sad when he got shot everybody was crying and it really upset me too that he he got shot like that you know and he to me he is such a great president to me 'cause he got everything going in United States going the right direction there was jobs all over the place inflation wasn't here they had a lot of gas wars in Butte you know at these stations and I remember my brother and I we used to go to a gas station in butte called a community gas station and we drive in there and we put a dollar's worth of gas and that'll about fill your car up then that's how cheap the gas was and him and I after we fill up we had little money and we just in our gas station right around the corner there was a little drive in and we go to that drive in you can get a hamburger fries and a milkshake for 11 cents at that time

assasination

Ballensky_Leroy-76

HO: wow

Ballensky_Leroy-77

LB: and that was their special that day yeah and my brother and I had a lot of fun there in Butte and we go into town sometimes you know and we go at their drive-thru there and they call it Tinkerbelle drive in and then we go up there and what you do is ask for some request slips and they give you some request slips like four of them and then you write too who from who for that song you want them to play for ya so eddie he make it out then him and I would go home and turn the radio on we lived in Butte then turn the radio on and you could hear your names over that radio said too Leroy from his brother Eddie and they would play that song and that was quite a deal for teenagers 'cause teenagers hung around those drive ins a lot and you know you drive this strip through Butte they had a route that you go through teenagers and sometimes you even race and street races and then you used to walk around they used to have like movie theaters used to only cost you a dime to go to a theater back and them days used buy a candy bar dollar forty some now and used to buy them for a nickel and it was a lot of fun back in the them days in the 60s

actvities

Ballensky_Leroy-78

HO: that's good did you and Eddie have a song you guys would play?

music

Ballensky_Leroy-79

LB: pardon Hun

Ballensky_Leroy-80

HO: did you and Eddie have a song you guys would play?

music

Ballensky_Leroy-81

LB: a phone

Ballensky_Leroy-82

HO: a song when you guys would do that?

music

Ballensky_Leroy-83

LB: oh a song the songs eddie would know the songs he knew the songs I like I would tell him you know and something the one I really didn't care for was when you when you're 16 you're beautiful and you're mine and I did not like that he would play that I was so embarrassed to hear that on the radio and then when see my friends they sing that to me oh you're 16 and I was 16 at that time

music

Ballensky_Leroy-84

HO: that's funny eddie there's a prankster

Ballensky_Leroy-85

LB: huh

Ballensky_Leroy-86

HO: I said eddies a prankster

Ballensky_Leroy-87

LB: yeah he was

Ballensky_Leroy-88

HO: grandpa do you remember when MLK got assassinated?

assassination

Ballensky_Leroy-89

LB: when what

Ballensky_Leroy-90

HO: Martin Luther King junior

Ballensky_Leroy-91

LB: Oh yeah he got assassinated about right after Kennedy did and they assassinated him too Butte didn't many colored people there at the time you know but you know when Kennedy and Martin Luther King were getting together they help free the blacks from being equal in all from like now it is everyone can get jobs black and white now at these jobs but back in them days they were trying to keep from all the blacks had to go to certain bathrooms and drink out certain fountains and stuff like that and couldn't go to a white school President Kennedy and Martin Luther King they were getting together and they're working things out real good for the black and whites where they wouldn't have to do that that's the reason why I think they got rid of him because things were going pretty good with Martin Luther King and President Kennedy and I feel sorry for him you know all the black people because what was going on you know

assasination

Ballensky_Leroy-92

HO: Yeah well grandpa I think that is the end of the interview thank you so much for taking your time out of the day and talking to me

Ballensky_Leroy-93

LB: hey you're sure welcome honey anytime

Bowman_rich

bowman_rich-1

Faith Katseanes: Hello, this is Faith Katseanes and I am here with Rich Bowman. It is 5:04pm on October 5 2022. This interview is completely voluntary and will be recorded. You have the right at any time to opt out. Do you consent to being recorded?

[00:00:00]

bowman_rich-2

Rich Bowman: Yes.

[00:00:17]

bowman_rich-3

FK: So let's start stating where you were born and talking a little bit about your hometown.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-4

RB: Sure. I was born in Idaho Falls, Idaho in 1954 at Sacred Heart Hospital. My parents lived in Montana. And my mother came to Idaho Falls because the little town that they lived in, in Montana didn't have a hospital. So I was actually born in Idaho. I didn't realize until two years ago when I went to apply for the Star License, we have that now the star driver's license. I took a closer look at my birth certificate and I'm actually considered a Montana native. Because my birth certificate said I had full residence on the land of Montana. I had a nonresident Idaho birth certificate. Nonresident tickled me to death. I was proud of that.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-5

FK: Really, that's funny.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-6

RB: As much time as I spent in Montana, I always wanted to be Montana native and by gosh, I didn't learn until two years ago. Believe it or not. I am a native.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-7

FK: So did you spend most of your time here in Idaho?

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-8

RB: Yes, I grew up in Idaho Falls most of the time. My parents lived in Montana until I was about four. My dad got it got a job at the INL test site. West of town, and we moved here then and I lived here ever since then. And went all the way through school through high school. And I actually went back to Montana when I was in college.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-9

FK: Interesting. All right. So what jobs did your parents hold in the 60s?

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-10

RB: It was different times than today. My father worked as a reactor operator. When he moved to the Idaho test site prior to that when I was born, he was actually a chef in Montana. And he got a job at the INL because they were paying more money in accident benefit insurance. He was interested in starting a family, that's the job he worked, as a reactor operator until he retired. And my mother actually was a housekeeper and a mom. She worked part time at a restaurant as a waitress when both my brother and I got into school because then we were gone. She was alone. She worked part time at a restaurant for like a year, and she decided to be a homemaker and a mom. Yeah, so that is pretty common. All my friends did. Most of their parents were the same way. My father worked full time. The mother was a homemaker. It was quite common in those days unlike like today.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-11

FK: Did you have any sort of childhood job like a paperboy or anything like that?

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-12

RB: Yeah, I worked. My uncle owns a ranch outside of Dillon, Montana, and when I was 15, I went to work for them. I moved pipe for a little bit and I drove a tractor with a buck rake on it and I lifted bales up to the stack so that the stacker could stack them. We did that for two crops of summer, along with moving pipe off and on when I got my first paying job. The second job I had was here when I was 16. I worked for the city of Idaho Falls on the road patching crew shoveling hot asphalt out of the back of the truck in the holes in the road. It was the hardest job I've ever had. And the hottest job because it was in the summer, obviously. But I made $1.65 an hour doing that. So three of us would shovel seven tons of hot asphalt. But it was a real steady summertime paycheck. That was in the summer of '69.

Family
Childhood

bowman_rich-13

FK: That's interesting. What do you remember about your schooling that decade and what kind of information were they teaching you in classes? Was it just standard or do you feel like it might have changed when you think of what we're learning in school now?

Education
Childhood

bowman_rich-14

RB: Sure. I think grade school is pretty consistent, pretty standard. The classes we took and that kind of stuff and compare that to like my kids who went to school and also what they took in grade school and what I took in grade school, I think it's overall pretty similar. You learn the cursive in third grade, you learned basic math, we learned how to count the numbers and got the flashcard things in grade school. I think my own kids' generation was kind of similar to that. As time went by with technology it's changed surely. That was great school. Pretty consistent. By the time you got out of sixth grade you basically covered those four or five main classes pretty consistently. I liked history and the science classes. It wasn't just basic science, like in fifth and sixth grade it was just basic science, usually a general science. In seventh grade, it was basic science which covered you know, basic sets of issues like electricity and stuff like that. Ninth grade were the requirement to take biology as a freshman for everybody. Everybody in the city of Idaho Falls, we all took biology as freshmen. Otherwise it was algebra basic math. in seventh grade was intro to algebra in eighth grade it was algebra one pretty consistently throughout the city during my time. We started earning high school credits as a freshman. You went to a junior high school when I was a freshman, It was seventh, eighth, and ninth grade at the same school. But other than that, again, it was pretty consistent. I think English math, science, reading, writing was book reports a lot and those kinds of courses. Pretty basic, pretty consistent.

Education
Childhood

bowman_rich-15

FK: So, in terms of the books you were reading, do you remember what any of those were? Were they mostly classic books, or did you guys use some of the contemporary kind of stuff that

[00:10:06]
Education
Childhood

bowman_rich-16

RB: From what I remember we went to the library, City Library. That's where we went to get books. We ordered them from the Weekly Reader. We would order them and purchase them and we read them and then we get to report on them. Well, we could go to the city library and check them out. Just pick something to read and just want to get a read in junior high. To be honest, it was pretty much the pain. There was I'm trying to think in my English classes in junior high. And my English teachers, by the way, were outstanding. There were two English teachers in junior high. English became one of my favorite courses because of those two of them, those two of those teachers, but as far as reading goes, I don't remember. I remember them, mostly not telling us what to read, like classic books to read in junior high. They would identify a topic like "Go to the library and check out a book on some sort of a history subject or a fiction book." And then write a book report. In high school of course it got a little more detailed that they would tell you which books to read because they were into more of the classic books then.

Education
Childhood

bowman_rich-17

FK: We'll switch now to a little bit more about the decade itself. What big events do you remember hearing about the most during the 60s. What was in the mainstream talk of Idaho Falls during that time?

News
Culture

bowman_rich-18

RB: There are several that I'm going to talk about and they were not necessarily subjects or incidences. That were just for Idaho Falls. Looking back, you know, the 60s was a very complicated decade. There was a lot of stuff going on, and it was not all necessarily good, but it sure made the news. There were a few things that I think when I first started school, grade school, we were not taught, we weren't taught the topic, but it was a topic that we had to deal with. And it was the Cold War. The result of World War Two between the Soviet Union and the rest of the world. Basically, with the Cold War, Because they do fire drills for kids now. We did nuclear bomb war drills in grades. Like first grade, they were just like a fire drill. But we would ultimately just not go outside and stand outside in line. They would send us to, under my grade school was a certified shelter, a bomb shelter. And we would go down there like we would go outside for a fire drill. And they would tell us "Go against this wall, we have sealed barrels of water over here, we have canned and dried foods. And there's blankets over here," and sending us the message that if something like that happened, this is where we would go, this is where we immediately go to check the messages that we may have to stay there for a while.

[00:12:55]
Coldwar

bowman_rich-19

And when you're in first grade, it's like, "What?" you know, it was kind of weird, but you just did it and you got used to it. But as time went by, you know and I got further into junior high school. Obviously the Cold War was that I understood Oh, this is what was going on. So starting in the 60s, the Cold War was an issue that you didn't necessarily begin teaching about it just existed and you heard about it and you heard about it a lot on the news even on TV. The Cold War and nuclear weapons and the development and those kinds of things. Not that it wasn't something that personally frightened me. It just I recognized "Oh, wow. This is what's going on." Another thing in the 60s, one of the things that caught a lot of my attention personally was assassinations. Gross, I know. JFK died when I was in third grade. You never forget that in, third grade because, of seeing it on TV in school. Being sent home from school, when that happened. Seeing it on TV after that for several days until the funeral and then his body being laid in state at the capital of the Rotunda in Washington DC. We watched on TV the whole grade school.

News
Coldwar

bowman_rich-20

RB: That was something that was different. That was in '63. In '68. another assassination, of Martin Luther King. Woke up on a Sunday morning, my bedroom was downstairs, walked up the stairs turned on the TV. Nobody was up yet. Turned on the TV and it's a special report. I hated those of the kids because it interrupted the shows I wanted to watch. But I understood what happened. It was Martin Luther King had been shot that morning. Another one in June, Robert Kennedy. I woke up on a Sunday morning walk upstairs, turned the TV on and it was a special report on Robert Kennedy had been shot and killed during a campaign. Those three assassinations were on TV and on the news a lot. JFK, because he was President, Martin Luther King because of the civil rights issues going on in the country during that decade. And everybody knew who Martin Luther King was even an eighth grader. And of course, RFK just because he was John Kennedy's brother and he was running for president. I learned about it when I turn on the TV first thing on a Sunday morning for both of them. It always struck me funny. Another event that, personally I still kind of live with, would be the Beatles came to America. They were on our TV in January of 1964.

News
Music

bowman_rich-21

And I say that because it was after Christmas, was right after Christmas and I had heard of The Beatles because I'm starting to listen to music other than what everybody else has. So that was another incident. I got to watch them on TV on Ed Sullivan and so that was to me a major incident in my life. And it was on TV. Not a whole bunch, but everybody would watch the Ed Sullivan show on Sunday evening to see the Beatles. The last one after that event was the Vietnam War. That included the protests around the country, college campuses. All the time. The Vietnam War was on the front page of the newspaper every single day. The Vietnam War was on our TV every single evening. My dad would turn on the TV to watch the six o'clock news, and for the first 10 minutes it was the national news or international news, and it was Vietnam. Then 10 minutes of local news, five minutes of sports, and five minutes of weather. That was every single day. Every single day we got to see the number of deaths in Vietnam. That was that was what probably had the most effect on me was Vietnam, because it's something we learned that we lived with every day from 1965-66 through the rest of the 60s.

News
Music

bowman_rich-22

FK: With the Vietnam War, were you noticing people from your community getting drafted? How do you think Idaho was kind of playing a part in that?

Vietnam

bowman_rich-23

RB: You know, I probably couldn't speak to the whole community. I had a couple of friends that were drafted and went to Vietnam, older brothers. And they came back. They didn't get killed. They came back, they were fine. The biggest thing about Vietnam War for me personally was watching it on TV. And, they showed clips. They showed videos of reporters actually embedded with the troops in Vietnam in the jungle. And then after they report and talk about that then they show the protests at home here in America. And I would see on TV all the time. I do not recall Vietnam protesting here in Idaho Falls, personally. I think overall because of the size of the community. The fact that was in Idaho, more of a rural state. It was kind of unquestioned overall I think of as a culture here in Idaho Falls. If your kids got drafted, they went. They didn't necessarily go to Vietnam, Don't get me wrong.

[00:20:25]
Vietnam

bowman_rich-24

They could've just been drafted in the military and gone to Germany. That was quite common. There were 116 combat battalion, in Idaho Falls that here ,and when it was here, then they did go to Vietnam. And maybe a couple of my friends', older brothers were involved in that and went to it. Other than that, I really didn't know anybody that actually went until later on in my life. When I worked with a good number of veterans, Vietnam. But I didn't know what protests were in Idaho Falls. I do know that it still impacted those of us who weren't quite old enough to draft in the 60s. I was old enough to be drafted in '72. I was 16 years old in 1969, the first year they held the draft lottery on TV. I developed my opinion of Vietnam because of the all the TV coverage. All the interstates were covered for three or four years and I'd seen it every day, day in and day out. My dad went to Korea, he was a decorated Korean War veteran.

Vietnam

bowman_rich-25

RB: I was patriotic, but I did not like Vietnam I developed my personal opinion about it. I remember conversation I had with my dad when I was 16. The night they held the draft lottery on TV, I didn't like it. And I'll be honest with you. my dad even told me that night, because I made some smart aleck comment about the lottery on TV. Something a 16 year old kid would probably say, and I said "I'm not going, this is not a war we need to be involved in. This war is causing pain in this country and I'm not going." My dad was in the living room watching the lottery on TV and reading the newspaper. I heard the paper crumbled down and I looked up in here he came into the kitchen. I was the dining room table doing my homework. And he said, "What did you say?" I said, "What do you mean?" He said "Did you say something about Vietnam?" and I said "I don't like it. I think it's not right. I disagree with it." And he said "Okay, you know what Rich? I don't like it either." I said, "You don't dad?" He said "No, it's not a war like when I went to Korea. This is a different war." It's kind of the same reasons as Korea, to stop communism.

Vietnam
Communism
Family

bowman_rich-26

He said, "You're not going to go? What would you do? If your draft number comes up, if get a low draft number, say your number is 50?" And low draft numbers guaranteed usually you're going to be drafted. Number one and number two, the lowest numbers are usually the ones that were sent to Vietnam. And I said "You know, I love to fish. Canada might be a good place to live." That's where the draft dodgers were going. Holy cow, that lit a fire under him. Would I have actually done that or not, I'll never know. You know, because I ended up having some major surgery a couple years later and I was declared for 4F because of it. And the military wouldn't take me even if I wanted to enlist. The funny part is when I turned 18 and my draft number was held, my number was like 300. It's unlikely I would have been drafted anyway. I did not like Vietnam as a young person. I did not like it. And it was the biggest event in this country, I believe, in the last half of that century. It had the most impact of anything, music, everything.

Vietnam
Values

bowman_rich-27

FK: So we're going to switch gears a little bit to civil rights issues. Could describe the demographic of Idaho Falls at the time? Was it mostly male, mostly female, was it mostly white? What kind of people were living in Idaho Falls during the 60s?

[00:26:43]
Civilrights
Diversity

bowman_rich-28

RB: Mostly white males. The Nuclear test site was the primary employer for the community then, and probably still is. And at the time, it was made up of laborers. Then they would work their way into it like my dad did. He started in the labor. He became a reactor operator after a few years' worth of training and experience and little bit of education. So most of the people that worked at the site at that time, because It came to be in the 50s, early 50s. Most of the people at that time were males, white males. And in the 60s. I believe it was still primarily white, mostly male. A lot of female too, but primarily white male and white female.

Civilrights
Diversity

bowman_rich-29

FK: So because it was primarily white, would you say that issues of civil rights were a little removed from the area at that time?

Civilrights
Diversity

bowman_rich-30

RB: Yes, I do. I think it wasn't something that was an issue in the community of Idaho Falls at the time that I was aware of. Now, having said that, there were black families, Asian families, Hispanic families in Idaho Falls. Farming communities used not as many Hispanic laborers as they do now, but was it was here, but it was still predominantly white. And, I think probably civil rights, as far as what was going on around the rest of the country, in the bigger cities, None of that none of that was here. Was bigotry here? Yeah. There were a few black kids in school and there were some people that would, you know, disgustingly call them names and stuff. But that never became a civil rights issue, per se. It was painful for those folks. And ignorant of people that were doing. Civil Rights was kind of like a product from it. Civil Rights in Idaho Falls is something we'd see on TV. The protests and fights and crimes, the murders and stuff that would go on. It becomes a topic of conversation because, in history and government, whatever class you might be taken in primarily junior high school, those would be topics of discussion and then topics that they would have debate students look at and work on. For the purpose of educating, but it was not something we really lived.

Civilrights
Diversity
Discrimination

bowman_rich-31

FK: Okay, so I think we're going to wrap it up with a more one off question. What hobbies or kind of extracurricular activities do you remember having during the 60s? What were you doing for fun?

Childhood
Sociallife

bowman_rich-32

RB: I'm not going to tell you everything, they'd get me in trouble. No, I'm just kidding. Predominantly when I wasn't in school, I was either playing a sport like baseball or basketball. So sports was my primary extracurricular activity. My other extracurricular activity, depending on the season, was hunting and fishing. So basically, it was outside. Because of just where we live, we live in part of the Rocky Mountains. We live close to national parks, beautiful country. And mountains and rivers and streams and lakes. So sports primarily. I love my sports. I loved to play sports when I was a kid, the only sport I never played was football. But I love playing sports. And when I wasn't doing that, it was because I was maybe fishing up in Montana in the summer and hunting in the fall. Music was not a hobby. I but when I was doing my homework, I was listening to music. I loved music when I was a kid. I'm not kidding. The Beatles and rock and roll as a young kid took me by storm and I would do anything to get a Beatles album. So that was kind of a hobby, I guess you could say.

Childhood
Sociallife
Music

bowman_rich-33

FK: Yeah. Right. I think that's good for my recording. So I'll just stop that. Thank you for your time.

[00:29:53]

Scofield_clay

scofield_clay-1

Olivia Adams: Hello is this Mr. Scofield?

scofield_clay-2

Clay Scofield: Yes, and you can just call me Clay.

scofield_clay-3

OA: Okay Clay. This is Olivia.

scofield_clay-4

CS: Good to hear.

scofield_clay-5

OA: Very nice to hear from you too. How are you doing this morning?

scofield_clay-6

CS: Doing well. Smoky, but it's a little better than yesterday, so yeah.

scofield_clay-7

OA: It's pretty smoky here too and it gives me a headache. Yeah, fingers crossed that goes away. Well thank you for agreeing to doing the interview with me.

scofield_clay-8

CS: Not a problem

scofield_clay-9

OA: Your daughter is lovely by the way. I really enjoy her class.

scofield_clay-10

CS: Yeah, we think she's pretty amazing.

scofield_clay-11

OA: Well you're not wrong. Alright well before I start asking you a few questions, I just wanted to let you know that that this interview might end up in the University of Idaho archives for future research. Are you okay with this interview being shared with other people for research here?

scofield_clay-12

CS: Okay

scofield_clay-13

OA: Awesome, and I'll create a transcript once we're done. Would you like to see that transcript?

scofield_clay-14

CS: It really isn't necessary.

scofield_clay-15

OA: Okay well that sounds good, so I guess we'll get started if that's cool with you.

scofield_clay-16

CS: Fine.

scofield_clay-17

OA: Alright normally I wouldn't ask this question, but may I ask how old you were in the year 1960?

childhood

scofield_clay-18

CS: 1960... Well, let's see. I was born in '49.

childhood

scofield_clay-19

OA: So you would have been 11?

childhood

scofield_clay-20

CS: Yes.

scofield_clay-21

OA: Okay, cool, just so I can gauge how old you were during the sixties.

scofield_clay-22

CS: Yeah, and I graduated in '67.

childhood

scofield_clay-23

OA: One moment. So when you were alive during the sixties, did you listen to a lot of music? Do you remember what artists you listened to at the time?

music

scofield_clay-24

CS: Well I remember very distinctly, and I think I was in junior high, when The Beatles came to America. So that was a significant time. Paul Revere and the Raiders, which of course, started in Idaho. Paul McCartney. Mamas and the Papas.

music

scofield_clay-25

OA: Oh the Mamas and the Papas, ha-ha.

music

scofield_clay-26

CS: Yep.

scofield_clay-27

OA: My dad he was born in 1966 but he, so he was a bit young during the sixties, but he really loved The Beatles.

music

scofield_clay-28

CS: Yep.

scofield_clay-29

OA: Do you think that the music at the time was more related to social change like civil rights? Or do you think that music was to do with partying?

music
socialmovements

scofield_clay-30

CS: I think there was a mix, but I think a lot of it was about social change. And of course, I grew up during Vietnam, so there was a lot of resistance and frustration over that.

socialmovements
music
vietnam

scofield_clay-31

OA: I can imagine. What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War?

vietnam

scofield_clay-32

CS: Well, in general, it felt like we kind of got sucked into that war. And I mean, when I graduated from high school, I received a draft notice. And I would have been sent over, but I had lung problems, and they didn't think I could manage being in the humid heat over there.

vietnam
draft

scofield_clay-33

OA: Wow.

scofield_clay-34

CS: So I was not drafted.

draft

scofield_clay-35

OA: That's really crazy to think about today. To think about the draft today, I can't imagine. Did you have friends that were drafted?

draft

scofield_clay-36

CS: Oh yeah. Quite a few. And some of them didn't make it back. Many of them did.

draft

scofield_clay-37

OA: I'm sorry for your friends that didn't make it back.

draft

scofield_clay-38

CS: Yeah, yep.

scofield_clay-39

OA: Did the war change how you felt about the United States as a global leader?

vietnam

scofield_clay-40

CS: You know, it didn't. It made me question our leadership more than anything. As far as the country goes, to me it is more than just who's in the White House or who's making the decisions.

vietnam
values

scofield_clay-41

OA: Absolutely I can agree with that. I study political science and international affairs, so it's pretty relevant to what I study today to hear about how you felt during that time. So thank you.

scofield_clay-42

CS: Yeah, yep.

scofield_clay-43

OA: So apart from the Vietnam War, do you remember other social movements at the time?

vietnam
socialmovements

scofield_clay-44

CS: Well yeah. So, towards the end of the sixties, there was clearly a lot of change and movement. We had Martin Luther King and his assassination. I lived in the Santa Cruz area, and then I took the course on urban populations. And we spent a month in San Francisco. And that was rather interesting. Because I went to a very conservative college, Christian college, to get my bachelor's degree. And the professor that I had for the urban populations set us up to go listen and talk to the gay liberation alliance, which was centered in San Francisco. The pink panthers, we talked to the black Panthers.

change
education
sexuality
socialmovements

scofield_clay-45

OA: Wow.

scofield_clay-46

CS: And went to a church service at Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco, which was run by a gentleman who is gay, or was. So there was all of those things going on. And of course, Haight Ashbury in the sixties. There were lot of what was termed "hippies". And a lot of drug use. And again,just being in San Francisco during all of those change upheavals was pretty fascinating.

sexuality
socialmovements

scofield_clay-47

OA: I can only imagine. I was I was born in the Bay Area, and I have visited San Francisco so many times. I've seen Haight-Ashbury, and I just can only imagine what it would have been like in the Summer of Love in the 1960s.

scofield_clay-48

CS: Yep, yep. Now, growing up in Boise, there really wasn't a lot of drugs in Boise at that time. I knew some guys who smoked pot and those kinds of things, but there just wasn't a large group that used drugs. A lot of alcohol use.

scofield_clay-49

OA: That sounds about right for Idaho, yeah.

scofield_clay-50

CS: Ha-ha, uh-huh.

scofield_clay-51

OA: Ha-ha.

scofield_clay-52

CS: And I don't know if my daughter told you, but after I graduated, I got my master's degree in marriage family and child counseling. I thought I would move back to Idaho. And I became a drug and alcohol abuse counselor.

education

scofield_clay-53

OA: Wow that's very brave. I have a lot of respect for that. What made you decide to move back to Idaho?

scofield_clay-54

CS: Well, I had spent four years getting my bachelor's degree in Santa Cruz, and then a couple of years in between. And then about three years getting my master's. And I just think that there is certain parts of California I really loved, but just the sheer number of people... that wasn't a place where I wanted to raise family. Both Margie's family and my family was here in Idaho, so we just felt like it was a good decision to move back.

family

scofield_clay-55

OA: It was the same when I was a kid. My parents moved my family to Idaho because they felt it was a better place to raise my little brother and me. So I can see that being a similar reason. Did witnessing a lot of the drug use and the hippie movement in San Francisco... was that a piece of inspiration for you and your decision to become a substance abuse counselor?

socialmovements

scofield_clay-56

CS: You know, part of it was working on my master's degree. I worked at a long-term treatment facility. And just dealing with the long-term effects of drug addiction and watching how it destroyed people's lives and families' lives. It just motivated me to move in that direction. Now when I was providing treatment, I worked extensively with families. Just recognizing that if the family wasn't on board, trying to make changes was extremely difficult.

family
change

scofield_clay-57

OA: Yeah. Not to go off track of the interview, but my mom struggles with substance abuse, so I do have a lot of respect for what you do. So thank you.

scofield_clay-58

CS: Well, yes. So I was talking the other day with one of my former clients, and I just saw him in downtown Emmett about a week ago. And when I first saw him, he couldn't stay sober to make it in for an outpatient appointment. Even if it was at eighto'clock in the morning. And I mean, his liver was failing, and he decided he wanted to change because his grandkids said, "we don't want to lose you". And he went into inpatient treatment. I got him in and got him involved in AA. Now 30 years later, and he's still sober.

family
change

scofield_clay-59

OA: Wow, wow.

scofield_clay-60

CS: There's always hope.

scofield_clay-61

OA: Yeah, there's always hope. And it takes a lot to help people in that way. Because I feel like it has to be a mix of understanding but also insistence to help them get better.

scofield_clay-62

CS: Yeah.

scofield_clay-63

OA: Did you see that people during the sixties, that used drugs and were part of the hippie movement... were they treated differently in any way?

scofield_clay-64

CS: Well again, I mean, I worked with people who used drugs on a regular basis. At least in the Bay Area, I didn't see any discrimination against them. It was just something they did, and as long as they did their work, everybody was cool.

discrimination

scofield_clay-65

OA: How common was it to find people using drugs? Was it pretty common? How significant did you feel that was as a part of the counterculture movement?

socialchange

scofield_clay-66

CS: In the Bay Area, I think it was fairly significant. You always had a large group that didn't and was very judgmental of anybody who did. But you know, you look at a percentage. Probably 10% of people are using drugs in one way or another.

scofield_clay-67

OA: That's fairly large.

scofield_clay-68

CS: Ha-ha, yeah well, that is. Part of that was the area I was in. And even though I went to a Christian Bible college, there were students who used. Probably a couple of professors who used. Not that they advertised it, but you pick up the signs.

education

scofield_clay-69

OA: Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if that statistic held true today in the Bay Area.

scofield_clay-70

CS: Mhm, yeah.

scofield_clay-71

OA: Did you feel like that you saw quite a contrast going to a religious school in San Francisco? What was it like? what were some of your experiences? And did it come into play in your teaching? Like religion? Or was it a piece of your education? And how was that contrasted with, I guess, the counterculture movement in San Francisco at the time?

education
culture
socialmovements

scofield_clay-72

CS: Well, it wasn't a part of my education. So the college again was a very conservative college. But there were more liberal professors within that realm. My bachelor's degree was in psychology, and I think we certainly had discussions about drug addiction. But it wasn't a course or anything like that. It just came up as a part of what was going on at that time. I think the other interesting thing, I mean I grew up, my parents were very religious, particularly my mom. And at the church I went to, there was never any discussion about politics. The church at that time, the evangelical churches, were very clear that they wanted a separation between church and state. That benefited both the churches, and it benefited the state to stay out of politics. I mean in my younger years, abortion wasn't legal. And again as Roe versus Wade came up and went through the court systems, there was no discussion about "let's petition against this, let's get involved in this discussion." So it's very different than what we see today, which is churches trying to dictate what's happening in our nation.

education
socialmovements

scofield_clay-73

OA: Yeah, that's actually fascinating. That's not something that I would have expected to hear about going to church at the time, and that there was that separation. Because today that's very common, especially in terms of abortion stuff.

scofield_clay-74

CS: Yeah, yep.

scofield_clay-75

OA: Did you experience any type of culture shock when you went from Idaho to go to school in the Bay Area?

culture

scofield_clay-76

CS: Oh yeah. Ha-ha. So my first four years was in the Scotts Valley, which is just up the hill from Santa Cruz. And I worked in Santa Cruz, plus went to college. The Santa Cruz area was just really laid back. And again, a significant number of people using drugs. The house I lived in off of campus, I paid $100 a month collision, and it was a house. That's hard to imagine.

culture
education

scofield_clay-77

OA: Ha-ha, yeah!

scofield_clay-78

CS: When I moved to San Jose to start working on my master's degree, that was much more of a culture shock, really. Because of just the sheer number of people and the activities. It was not bad; it was just so different than what I was accustomed to.

culture

scofield_clay-79

OA: I can imagine. And the number of people... I'm trying to wrap my head around how many people would have been in that area during the time.

scofield_clay-80

CS: Well, over in Santa Cruz, it was a small enough group of people. But again, there was just lots of different groups of people. And it felt like, to me, people were pretty accepting of each other just the way they were. In Stanford, or rather San Jose. At one point, I moved to Sunnyvale. And it was primarily a black community. And that wasn't big deal to me because that's why I moved there. But it was fascinating because oftentimes blacks were suspicious of me because I was kind of... I stood out. I had red hair!

culture
diversity

scofield_clay-81

OA: Ha-ha.

scofield_clay-82

CS: Ha-ha. It was kind of like: "yeah, okay." I remember at one point in in the class, where we stayed in San Francisco, where we stayed was in the black section of town. I forget the name of it. And we were kind of in a dorm situation where there was 20 of us all sleeping in the same room. And again, I was accustomed to being on my own. So I'd sometimes wake up and then go for a walk at night. And there was a lot of crime that went on in the area. And I'd be walking down the street, and the black people walking towards me would cross to the other side of the street. I finally figured out that they didn't get white people in that neighborhood unless they were looking for trouble. It's like "I'm sorry, not looking for trouble. I just need to walk."

diversity
education

scofield_clay-83

OA: And it's sad that that was their experience, that they had to worry about that. And it wasn't even anything to do with who you were. It was just that at the time. Yeah wow. Did you see any form of discrimination during the civil rights movement? Were you aware? Did you know people that were discriminated against?

discrimination
diversity

scofield_clay-84

CS: Yes absolutely. Of course growing up in Boise, I think there was one black student at Boise High. We had 2000 students. There may have been more, but at least around my age. And again, I didn't think anything of it. He was a friend of mine. But there was certainly discrimination against him. One of my best friends was Chinese. And his name was Hoi-Lee. And, again, just because he was Asian, there was discrimination against him. And we were friends from grade school right up through high school. For me, growing up in the home I did, there was no discrimination overtly being shown. I think there was some views around white marrying black just because of cultural differences, not because they were black. So I'm grateful that I grew up in a home that accepted whoever. It didn't matter. And that's the kind of Christianity that I grew up with. And so what I'm seeing today just appalls me. The level of vitriol towards gays. And I don't understand i

discrimination
diversity
education
culture
sexuality

scofield_clay-85

OA: Neither do I. I wonder when in time did that shift take place. I don't know if anyone has that answer, but at what point did that become the new... a new piece of religion?

change

scofield_clay-86

CS: I don't know. It baffles me.

scofield_clay-87

OA: I'm from Coeur d' Alene, Idaho. And so it's, I guess, it's crazy because when you were talking about there being one Chinese friend you had and one black friend that you had, it's still like that today. In Coeur d' Alene, you know it's crazy that after so many years, that is still an experience. And I mean, Coeur d'Alene, of course, used to have a KKK headquarters in Hayden, so it's not surprising. But it is crazy to me to hear that that was an experience you had, but that's also an experience I had. And it has been so long.

discrimination

scofield_clay-88

CS: Yeah, yeah. Times change, and it's not always for the good.

change

scofield_clay-89

OA: Yeah, yes. And there's... in North Idaho of course, there's a lot of very, very religious people that practice in a way that is homophobic. And it's really hard because, of course, I have a lot of friends that are part of the LGBTQ+ community and are growing up in Idaho. Like I have a friend who lives here in Moscow, but he doesn't like going to Coeur d'Alene because it's scary to him. And it's sad that it has been so long and it's still a part of the time today.

sexuality

scofield_clay-90

CS: Still a part, yep. Yeah, you asked about whether I was aware of any prejudice. You know, if you listened to the news at all. Certainly, growing up during Martin Luther King and Kennedy, it was a part of what you saw in the news almost daily. And it feels like we're going backwards rather than forwards at this point. And again, I just don't understand it. It makes me mad. Because it feels like we just... we fought this. And for people really going back to that way of thinking. Of course, I think the other side of it is a lot of those people just kept their heads down and didn't say anything. Until we got a leader who supports it and actively keeps people focused on people being less than.

news
change
childhood
civilrights

scofield_clay-91

OA: It is heartbreaking honestly. It really is.

scofield_clay-92

CS: Yeah. Yes, it is.

scofield_clay-93

OA: As a political science student, something that I've been studying recently as part of a few of my classes is whether or not there is a backslide of democracy in the United States. And it's interesting to link those social issues. Of course, I'm only 20. I wasn't alive like during the sixties. But to hear from your experience, and how you still see that there aresteps going backwards when, like you said, that there was already a fight for equal rights. And it's sad to hear in a lot of ways.

civilrights

scofield_clay-94

CS: Yeah, it is. Again, it seems that when people feel less than, then they got to find somebody to say that they're at fault. So it's: "if we just get rid of the gays, we'll be fine. I'll have a good job I'll have what I want." You know?

sexuality

scofield_clay-95

OA: Yeah, so unfortunately for them, it doesn't work that way.

scofield_clay-96

CS: Nope, no it does not. It never will. They're just being dishonest with themselves.

scofield_clay-97

OA: I know San Francisco, the Bay Area, has a pretty a long history of being like a center for the pride movement. Did you witness a lot of... during the sixties, did you see any discrimination against people who were part of LGBTQ+?

sexuality
discrimination

scofield_clay-98

CS: Well, first you have to understand that they didn't have those terms. It was really at the beginning of the fight for equality and safety. As I said, we as a class went and talked to the gay liberation alliance group and the Pink Panthers, which were a pretty militant group trying to stop the discrimination. So it was really the beginnings of saying "we've had enough. This isn't right." But I kind of laugh because back when I was in high school, a book came out called the "Boys of Boise". I don't know if you've heard of it at all. It was a book written about the political and business leaders in Boise that were gay. And it was amazing how many... some of them were prosecuted, but many weren't. And again, it's like "why would you be concerned about who he's having sex with, unless it is with children?" Okay, and I get that. But these men weren't having sex with kids. But there was a whole, I think probably 20, and of course this was further back than the sixties. It would have been in the forties and fifties. So a conservative state still had gay people. Go figure!

sexuality
discrimination
gender

scofield_clay-99

OA: Yeah!

scofield_clay-100

CS: And they were very successful gay people. There were some of those that married just so that suspicion was not focused on them about being gay.

sexuality

scofield_clay-101

OA: Of course. It's sad.

scofield_clay-102

CS: Yeah, it is. It's like: "it's not okay to be who you are." Or they talk about freedom. But it's freedom for you to do whatever you want to do, but not for a gay person, or a woman, or on and on and on.

discrimination
sexuality
gender

scofield_clay-103

OA: Exactly, it's like they limit who freedom can apply to, and it undermines the term itself.

discrimination
values

scofield_clay-104

CS: Yeah, absolutely.

scofield_clay-105

OA: What was it like when you spoke with members from the Black Panthers?

civilrights

scofield_clay-106

CS: Again, what I experienced was that they were open to talk and wanting people to listen. So it didn't matter that... I think we had a couple of Asians in our class but no blacks. They wanted us to understand their life experience. And what they were going through. So even though they were a militant group, it wasn't about just trying to hurt people because they were white. It was about trying to get people to understand. So, from my end of things, it was a very positive experience.

diversity
education
civilrights

scofield_clay-107

OA: That's interesting because I feel like in history, in a lot of ways, there are things said about the Black Panthers that, in a way, can undermine that their mission was for that understanding.

scofield_clay-108

CS: Yeah, well, and again, I mean, they demonstrated, they did things that were considered illegal. But again, it's like how do you get the attention of people in power? Now in the early seventies, they had what was called the zebra murders. And they were...in fact there was a fair number that occurred in San Francisco...where a black person would pick out a white person just at random and shoot. But that was not... and again, I think part of what people did was they tended to just group people. And well, if you're black, or if you're part of the Black Panthers, you're out there doing these things. And that was not the case.

civilrights
discrimination

scofield_clay-109

OA: It's like one bad apple spoils the bunch.

scofield_clay-110

CS: Well, it certainly can. But again, to me it's always my responsibility to do the research to look at: ok who are these people that are doing these things? And where does it cross the line? And again, when you still have lynchings in the forties, fifties, sixties in the South. Can I blame the Black Panthers for being militant? I don't think so. This is the same thing that we're facing now. It is like, you've got police officers killing and incarcerating blacks at a much higher rate than whites. Is there a problem? Yeah! Does that mean get rid of police? I don't think so, but we'd better do a better job training and getting rid of police officers who do those kinds of things. And again, part of the problem has been that we had a culture of covering up that stuff that's gone back a lot longer than the sixties.

civilrights
culture

scofield_clay-111

OA: Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question for you. If you saw similarities between a lot of the BLM movements today andthe Civil Rights movements back in the sixties.

civilrights
discrimination

scofield_clay-112

CS: Oh yeah. I mean, to me, it's strictly clear. And again, part of the problem is that we make some progress, and then we get idiots in charge, and we go back. I've never seen it go back as far as we have now. And again, part of that started in the Supreme Court. That struck down affirmative action. It's like, if you don't hold some of these states accountable, they'll do whatever they want to do. And so, the Supreme Court, as we've experienced, has a lot of ability to shape the attitudes and values of our nation.

values

scofield_clay-113

OA: Oh absolutely. Especially when you have Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett from Trump's presidency. And I feel like, especially with Amy Coney Barrett, like you see the religion come into play in the values that they bring forth.

values

scofield_clay-114

CS: Yeah yeah.

scofield_clay-115

OA: It really is fascinating to hear that there was a distinct separation between politics and religion when you went to church because that's just...that's crazy because there's definitely not that today. And it comes into play especially...I do feel like in the Supreme Court. Now there's talk of overturning certain things that involve like gay marriage and it's, it's crazy.It hasonly been since 2008 and now they're already... it is already being called into question.

values
sexuality

scofield_clay-116

CS: Yeah, of course. One of the things that is relatively new was this Supreme Court saying that a white could marry a black because there was a lot of states where that was not legal. And you have a supreme court justice who is very conservative and is a black who is married to a white. Do you really think that people don't see what you're doing? It is like, if as long as it doesn't affect you, they will establish whatever rule they want to. It was interesting because we went to the pride parade this last weekend on Sunday. And there was a whole hoorah about a kid drag show. And it's like: okay, you don't know what you're talking about, and it is none of your business. But what I saw was businesses step up and not back away. There was probably 10 or 15 church groups that were represented at the pride festival, so not all churches have gone crazy. It was good to see. It was encouraging.

discrimination
sexuality
gender

scofield_clay-117

OA: That is good. That is good to know. And I guess I can't generalize and say all churches are like that in Coeur d'Alene because there are definitely... I can think of one church that is a bit more accepting. I'm glad to hear that there was support in Boise because in Coeur d'Alene, we had, over the summer, a pride festival in the park. And I'm sure you heard about the U-Haul being busted with a bunch of militants that were going to the pride festival. So its... to me it does seem crazy, it does seem backwards. And I haven't lived through history for that long.

discrimination
sexuality
gender

scofield_clay-118

CS: Yeah, yep. Well, you know, in terms of growing up in the sixties, it was a fascinating time. Because there was so much change going on and questioning. Just because the leaders said we need to go to war doesn't mean that that's the right decision to make. I mean, there had been family members who went to Canada because they refused. They would not go to war. And they lived there until they were allowed to come back because they could not support going to war.

family
draft
war

scofield_clay-119

OA: My mom is Canadian, and I have dual citizenship. And I feel like I would probably do the same.

family

scofield_clay-120

CS: Yeah, yep. I mean, obviously Canada isn't perfect either, but some of the things that are going on today in America is... it's just discouraging. Of course, I also believe you have to vote. You have to get out and say what is right. The other interesting thing. I mean, there's a lot of bias in news. But I think today at least we've learned to expect that from both sides. And we went to the parade, and just listening to the news reports from Fox News compared to MSNBC. The Fox News reports said there were hundreds of people there that participated in the parade and watched the parade. Whereas MSNBC said there were thousands. Well, we estimated just based on the number of groups and floats that were in the parade that there was at least 700 people in the parade itself. And the streets were lined on both sides of the street with two to three deep, some places more

news
sexuality
discrimination

scofield_clay-121

CS: So, I would estimate at least 7,000-8,000 people were involved in the parade and watching it. So, it's like, okay, if you listen to Fox News, you're under the impression that for the size of Boise, there wasn't that many people there. They tried to get a group of "Freedom Dogs". We are not talking about freedom; they are just dogs. But they wanted a whole bunch to come out and show their disapproval. There may have been a dozen, and they caused no problem because again, you've got thousands and thousands of people there. And there was a large police presence and security presence. So, I'm sure it discouraged any... and I think the fact that those men up in Coeur d'Alene who were arrested and are now facing charges and having to go to court. Maybe they decided that it just wasn't worth it. So, know that whole thing was scary, and it could have turned out a lot worse. I think it was probably one of the better things that could have happened.

scofield_clay-122

OA: I can agree with that. I am glad to hear that it was such a big event in Boise. And that you can take the incident in Coeur d'Alene and say, "okay, that makes us hopeful for the future that these people are having to face consequences for their actions."

scofield_clay-123

CS: Yeah, yep.

news

scofield_clay-124

OA: It is hard with the news nowadays to find something that's nonbiased and reliable.

news

scofield_clay-125

CS: And we can listen to several different news outlets just so that we know what's being said across the board. And again, I think there's bias on both sides. I prefer a more liberal bias ha-ha.

scofield_clay-126

OA: Me too.

values

scofield_clay-127

CS: On a fiscal level, I tend to be conservative. But I oftentimes say that doesn't mean you don't spend money. It's how you spend the money, how you make decisions about where to focus your money. So, if you don't spend money on road upkeep, you're going to have a mess. If you don't spend money in assisting people who are in need, you're going to have a mess. You're going to fill up the prisons. It's how you spend your money. It's kind of the focus. And people who gripe about taxes and complain about the roads, I have no tolerance for this. Well, if you want better roads, you need to pay more money. That is just the way it is.

scofield_clay-128

OA: Some people just like to complain.

scofield_clay-129

CS: Ha-ha, that is the truth.

news

scofield_clay-130

OA: Did you find it difficult...like was the news very biased growing up in the sixties? Or did you find the news like...I know today it's very biased, and it's hard to find something that you know is truthful. Was that a problem for you growing up, or is there a point at which that changed?

news
childhood
civilrights
vietnam

scofield_clay-131

CS: Well, growing up we had at first one TV channel. There was more news that you got on the radio. The most number of channels through high school I think was three in Boise. I feel like the news was much less biased. Of course, this is long before the advent of the Internet and all of that. So, you had less ability to kind of search around and look for information. But the Internet has also just exploded the crazies out there that get a following. And people keep tuning into them for their information. It's like, okay. The newspaper...again I thought, for an area that is as conservative as Idaho is, it is less biased than I would have expected it to be. Because, like I said, we certainly got news about lynchings in the South. About Martin Luther King's advocating for change. So, it was there, and I felt like it was fairly balanced. And of course, in the sixties, we went into Vietnam. They really did it, share both sides of the equation. And of course, part of that was the hippie movement and the people who were saying, "you know, this isn't right." Jane Fonda was still around. A big advocate for saying that this harming people is not helping. So, I felt like, you never get all of the news, all of the information. And I think historians can go back and kind of sift through things and get a better view. But we certainly heard about the massacres that occurred in Vietnam. So, there was no effort to cover that up. So, in some respects, I think it was more balanced at that point than what we see today.

news

scofield_clay-132

OA: That's really interesting, that if you're getting your news from the radio. Or if you're getting your news because there aren't many TV channels, it would be more about what really is going on. I think today, the news is also used as an entertainment industry.

news

scofield_clay-133

CS: Yeah, that is very accurate. And it's the whole thing of: "if there is no thing actually happening yet, then I'm going to put on all kinds of opinions about what might happen." And again, that's trying to viewership, being the person who breaks the news. And it's like, okay, we don't know. Like with the whole thing with Mar-a-Lago, we don't know what's happening in the Justice Department. Only what they did in terms of raiding -- well not raiding -- but getting a warrant and collecting the information. But I get tired of: well, this expert, you know this former FBI agent, this.... Well until things actually shake out, you don't know. It's just a guess. And my guess is probably just as good as yours. Like you say, it's more about entertainment than actual news.

news

scofield_clay-134

OA: Yeah, I feel that's very true. And especially with like Mar-a-Lago, like you just have to wait and see because you have both sides. Like some people saying "oh it's nothing" and some people saying "it's going to be very significant".

values

scofield_clay-135

CS: Well, I think it's significant, but whether they will actually charge him or not? Who knows? I've dealt enough with the legal system to know that it isn't always right or fair. So, just because he's guilty doesn't mean he is going to be found guilty.

scofield_clay-136

OA: Yeah, there's not always.... the justice system isn't perfect.

scofield_clay-137

CS: No. And the more power and influence you have, the better the outcome you usually have in court. And that's not the way it's supposed to be, but it certainly is.

scofield_clay-138

OA: Yeah, there's definitely some privilege in terms of wealth.

scofield_clay-139

CS: Yep.

change
discrimination

scofield_clay-140

OA: Which, I would hope after so many years, we would have moved past that, but there's still discrimination in the courts, and there's still police brutality. And it is hard to see that people were fighting and dying in the sixtiesfor civil rights, and there's still an issue with, you know, equal treatment today.

values

scofield_clay-141

CS: Again, part of what I think happened, is that as things improved, it was easy to say "okay, you know we don't have to worry about that now." And it's not true. We do have to worry about it. We do have to be vigilant. Unfortunately, I think Americans in general...our attention span is very short.

change

scofield_clay-142

OA: Ha-ha, yeah. And just because we made progress doesn't mean that the issues aren't systemic, you know.

change
values

scofield_clay-143

CS: Yep, yep. And because they are systemic, it's difficult because you start criticizing the systemic nature of it. It is like, well, you're being critical of America. Well yeah, because if you're not honest with yourself, you cannot change. So, as Americans, it's up to us to be honest with ourselves and say, "well this is an area we need to work on. This is the part that we're failing in." I mean, to me it's hard to believe that on the federal level, they are just now getting rid of the use of the word "squaw". So, there's over 700 monuments and mountains that use that term. One of the people that I know, that I strongly disagree with, was upset because they're going to change the Butte that overlooks Emmett from "Squaw Butte" to something else. And it's like: okay, if the name of the mountain was "Bitch Butte", do you think people would be upset?

scofield_clay-144

OA: Ha-ha, yeah!

scofield_clay-145

CS: Probably!

scofield_clay-146

OA: Yeah!

change
values

scofield_clay-147

CS: And rightfully so! And so, you can't understand that a Native American would be upset at that term? Again, I have a hard time understanding peoples' biases that way. Well just because it has been named that for 100 years doesn't mean it's right.

scofield_clay-148

OA: I agree. Andjust because it's not offensive to you doesn't mean it's not offensive to other people.

scofield_clay-149

CS: Yeah.

change

scofield_clay-150

OA: It doesn't make sense to me either. Like the way I see it, if it's offending someone, then like, let's change it.

change
values

scofield_clay-151

CS: Why not? I mean, it's not that difficult. Again, it just blows me away that we now have a Native American as Secretary of State, and she made that decision. It should have been done a long time ago. But again, you have a whole group of people who just want to whitewash, literally, history. And not, to not recognize, the mistakes that have been made.

education

scofield_clay-152

OA: I agree. And especially because a lot of the history, even the history I was taught growing up, like is pretty whitewashed. And it's, you know, a white man's, a successful white man's, history. And so, it's important to hear about the experiences of minorities and the experiences of women. And because it has been silenced for so long. And because we have like this whitewashed history, you see things like problems that people were fighting during the sixties are still problems that we are fighting now.

socialmovements
change

scofield_clay-153

CS: Yeah, and I really think that a large part of the movements that occurred in the sixties were about questioning. Just because this has been the way it has been, doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean we can't change it.

change
valeus

scofield_clay-154

OA: Absolutely. Do you feel as if any of your views have changed since, on social issues, since the sixties?

change
values

scofield_clay-155

CS: I think that they have become broader. In part ...like I said growing up in a conservative church, we didn't...it wasn't a political process. And part of my frustration... anger towards the church, is about the changes that have occurred. And they really are not about Christianity; they're about a self-centered...trying to control other people. And it's like, that's not what Christianity is about. So, in some respects, my views have changed. I've always called myself a conservative, and Becca laughs at me. Because I've always been tolerant of other peoples' actions. I'm less tolerant of the people who call themselves Christians and act like heathens. Ha-ha

scofield_clay-156

OA: Ha-ha

values

scofield_clay-157

CS: That tolerance has always been there. Like I said, I'm conservative in terms of fiscal responsibility. It's like we don't...my wife and I don't have bills. Because we pay as we go, and if we can't afford it, we don't buy it. I think that's a rational way of doing things. So, when I look at the national approach to the things, particularly Republicans, just like particularly under Trump. It's like they wanted to spend money, but they don't want to raise taxes. In fact, they want to lower the taxes to the big businesses. And it's like, okay. People need to pay their share, and we need to raise enough money in order to pay for the things that are important, the things that we need. If that means paying more taxes, I'm fine with that.

change

scofield_clay-158

OA: Yeah, and the term has just changed so much.

change

scofield_clay-159

CS: Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. The terminology and things have changed. And so, in some respects, I changed how I approached things and talk about things. Partly because of the changes in our government and the changes in the church.

scofield_clay-160

OA: It is really interesting to hear the differences with the church and the difference with the term conservatism. Because what people my age think of when they think of conservative, it's like guns and, it's you know, like against abortion. And it's not as much the fiscal side of things, it's more the social side of things.

scofield_clay-161

CS: Yeah, well and you know, Idaho talks a big game about being fiscally conservative. And I have to laugh because of how much money Idaho gets from the federal government. And in general, they're pretty glad to be able to spend that money. Okay. If you're truly saying you don't want to spend tax money, you want to give all this money back to the people, you better acknowledge that you're able to do that because you've gotten a lot of federal money that allows us to run things. There's a lot of hypocrisy in politics in general, but here in Idaho, it's like, okay.

education

scofield_clay-162

OA: I agree. Then they go and do things like turn down a bill for K through 12 education funding.

education

scofield_clay-163

CS: Well, that specifically to me, is because they're not, if they are honest again, they want to get rid of public education. So why would you take money from the federal government for that?

scofield_clay-164

OA: Yeah, it's interesting. Well thank you very much. It has been great getting to talk with you. I really enjoyed hearing about your experiences and hearing about your thoughts about how things are today. It has been really good to hear from someone who has such a perspective that you do, so thank you. It has been great.

change
socialmovements
future

scofield_clay-165

CS: Well, you're welcome. I, again, like I said, there's a lot of parallels between what I'm seeing today and was going on in the sixties. And the bright side of that is people are still willing to fight, willing to say and speak the truth. And that is encouraging to me. When we were at the pride festival in Boise, somebody asked how I was doing. I said, "I'm doing wonderful." I said, "this is so encouraging" And he said "yes, yes it is." Because people were willing to come out and support and be themselves. So, I see the same fight that I saw in the sixties. And that's a good thing. It gives me hope for the future.

future

scofield_clay-166

OA: And that's why it's important to study history. So you can see those parallels and you know, that we keep fighting.

scofield_clay-167

CS: Yep.

values

scofield_clay-168

OA: And at the end of the day, my idea of the fundaments of the United States, you know, our country was... at least I think... people started the US because...well they didn't want to pay taxes...

scofield_clay-169

CS: Ha-ha, without representation.

values
future

scofield_clay-170

OA: Yeah, without representation. But also, that you know they wanted freedom to speak their voices, have their voices heard, and practice what religion they choose. And so I, that's what I would hope to see. Is that everyone can be who they are here. But hopefully people my age, and like I certainly will, will fight for that moving forward and keep that going.

change

scofield_clay-171

CS: Yep, yep. I hope so too. The fascinating thing to me is how churches have rewritten history. Because they talk about "well the founding fathers were Christian." It's like, I beg to differ, they were not! And they were spiritual people, but not Christian. And they were very intentional in making sure that there was a separation of church and state. That is what baffles me with the Supreme Court and some of the decisions they're making. Okay this is coming out of your religious beliefs, not out of the Constitution.

scofield_clay-172

OA: It is crazy, really interesting hearing that because I had no idea that there used to be that type of separation in church. So crazy stuff.

scofield_clay-173

CS: Alright well, I am glad my daughter gave you this assignment, and I was very happy to be able to talk to you about my experiences and views.

scofield_clay-174

OA: Well, thank you very, much thank you. I do have one last question before you go.

scofield_clay-175

CS: Sure.

music

scofield_clay-176

OA: Do you have a favorite Beatle song?

music

scofield_clay-177

CS: Uh, "Yellow Submarine".

music

scofield_clay-178

OA: Yeah, "Yellow Submarine"! Ha-ha!

music

scofield_clay-179

CS: Yeah, I know it's a little weird, but I loved it.

music

scofield_clay-180

OA: A classic, no, how can you not love it? Yeah, we had a "Yellow Submarine" ornament on my Christmas tree growing up. It was my favorite as a kid.

music

scofield_clay-181

CS: Ha-ha-ha really?

music

scofield_clay-182

OA: Yeah, it was like a little lunch box and a little thermos. And it had The Beatles on it and "Yellow Submarine". Ha-ha!

scofield_clay-183

CS: Well, you have good taste.

scofield_clay-184

OA: Thank you, you do too. Ha-ha.

scofield_clay-185

CS: Alright, well it has been good talking with you.

scofield_clay-186

OA: Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thank you, Clay.

scofield_clay-187

CS: Alright, take care. Bye.

Warren_kathleen

warren_kathleen-1

Rebecca Mills: This is Rebecca Mills. I am interviewing Kathleen Warren. We are at the University of Idaho Library, Room 131. It is September 27th, 2022. All right. The first question is, what music or artists were you listening to in the sixties?

[00:00:00]
Music

warren_kathleen-2

Kathleen Warren: Okay. Well, I had just gotten married in 1961. We were very busy starting our life and finishing college. And I really wasn't listening to a lot of popular music. I'm not one of these sorority or college people. I was a serious student, and I was a total idealist. I was really into the music in the fifties, Johnny Mathis, Elvis Presley, the Everly Brothers, and all that. When the sixties came, I liked that mellow lyrical music, like The Sounds of Silence and Peter, Paul, and Mary. Do you know who those are?

[00:00:19]
Music

warren_kathleen-3

RM: Mm-hmm (No).

[00:01:01]

warren_kathleen-4

KW: That's really funny. Simon Garfunkel, The Sound of Silence, and Puff, the Magic Dragon were from the sixties. I actually was interested in classical music. In the sixties, electronic music came in, [which] was kind of interesting; we call it new music. It was atonal; it was screechy to some people's ears. And I was interested in watching that and comparing it with the literature that I was learning. I graduated from San Rafael High School and then went to Berkeley and started studying German literature, which was (included) nihilists. Do you know what nihilism is?

[00:01:03]
Music

warren_kathleen-5

RM: Oh (No).

[00:01:54]

warren_kathleen-6

KW: So, God is Dead. All these things that here as a 17-year-old coming from middle-class San Rafael, California, was (were) just shocking. I was prepared to be shocked all through, including with music. Electronic music was interesting, and I was trying to figure it all out. There were others like Kingston Trio and Harry Belafonte, [who] was a Caribbean singer. That was one of the first introductions to a lot of diversity in music because it was pretty white---the Everly Brothers, BOP music until the sixties.

[00:01:54]
Music

warren_kathleen-7

RM: Interesting. Do you think that music was primarily about partying or social change?

[00:02:37]
Music

warren_kathleen-8

KW: I just told you what I listened to. I was not socially conscious. I was [a] scared to death 17-year-old going to Berkeley. And I wasn't really into too much, except I became conscious of the House Un-American Activities (HUAC) interviews. Do you know about those? Oh, good. I would say that for me, music was more about love, friendship, and transcendence. I don't really know much about Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, and all those. I know they'd sang [sung] a lot of socially conscious songs, but they weren't the ones I was singing. I was singing more love songs and eternal songs and that kind of thing. From what I've researched, music had [has] a social message to a degree. In fact, Puff, the Magic Dragon, has been said to have [contained] drug overtones.

[00:02:43]
Music

warren_kathleen-9

KW: However, my [two-year-old] son used to sing it. We thought it was a cute song, and that's how naive I was. I never smoked pot, [and] never got into any of that. But I did get into social justice, and the House Un-American Activities Committee just really grabbed me. I did go from Berkeley to San Francisco to one of the protests just to see what it was like. I was also one of the first members of the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People). [The NAACP] was just starting in the sixties. I was very naive and idealistic and thought that everybody should be equal. But I didn't hear that in the music.

[00:03:48]
Music

warren_kathleen-10

RM: Interesting.This brings me to a follow-up question. Did the Civil Rights movement affect your perspective on America's commitment to democracy?

[00:04:35]
Civilrights

warren_kathleen-11

KW: When the Civil Rights Movement started, I trusted the government to help these people. I thought this is great. The government is making it so that all students should be able to go to school, and people should be able to sit any place they want on the bus. I was a real idealist. I was committed to democracy, but that stemmed from my naivete.

[00:04:48]
Civilrights

warren_kathleen-12

RM: Interesting. What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War?

[00:05:21]
Vietnam

warren_kathleen-13

KW: Well, my gut feeling was that it was an exercise in futility. It came from hearing all the protests because the students were leading the protests. I was a college student, so I listened to them, and I thought, boy, they're smart. And I think it is futile. I was disgusted with how many people were dying, and we seemed to be getting nowhere. I was disgusted with the war. I didn't feel like [we] should be sending boys into the war if we didn't have some real purpose, like World War II when the Nazis were killing the Jews and so forth. We didn't have that much stake in the Vietnam War for our country here. And it was really hard for me as a young person to figure out why are we sending, maybe my husband later, into the war, except he wasn't my husband at the time. It did change me, changed my feelings about the US. I'm starting to doubt that the government was always right.

[00:05:32]
Vietnam

warren_kathleen-14

RM: Interesting. Did you know anybody who participated in any draft protests during Vietnam?

[00:06:51]
Draft
Vietnam

warren_kathleen-15

KW: Yeah, I just read about the Kent State uprising. And a friend of mine, I found [out] later, defected to Canada, so he wouldn't have to be drafted. And he wouldn't have to participate. He was a doctor, but I didn't know.

[00:07:02]
Draft
Vietnam

warren_kathleen-16

RM: Okay. I know it's been said that Vietnam was the first televised war. Did seeing it on the television or the nightly news make [it] seem closer to home?

[00:07:18]
Vietnam
News
Change

warren_kathleen-17

KW: Absolutely. TV was the biggest change that the sixties had. TV brought everything more immediate. We used to go to the movies and watch the news reels that told us what was happening. That's how we found out about war [and] about politics. If you didn't go to the movies, you didn't see a lot of that. TV was the biggest change that the sixties brought.

[00:07:31]
Vietnam
News
Change

warren_kathleen-18

RM: Wow. This brings me to another follow-up question. What social movements were you aware of at the time? How did you or your parents or community feel about them? How did they feel about their leaders?

[00:08:01]
Socialmovements

warren_kathleen-19

KW: I was very aware [of] the social movements, [like] desegregation, and discrimination against black people because of the NAACP meetings I went to at Berkeley and the newspapers. I did read newspapers. I had no clue what HUAC even meant until I actually saw people talking about it. TV was huge. I did participate mostly in what I've already just described.

[00:08:14]
Socialmovements
Change

warren_kathleen-20

RM: Okay. I know you've mentioned HUAC a couple of times now. What were your thoughts on that organization? What were your thoughts on communism during the Cold War?

[00:08:51]
Communism
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-21

KW: Well, my father was a Reagan devotee and was very conservative. When I went to Berkeley, he said, "Don't sign anything. Don't say that you're my daughter. Stay away from those commies." When you're a child, you wanna [want to] rebel a little bit, and you wanna [want to] say, what is he talking about? But of course, I accepted everything, almost everything. What was the gist of the question?

[00:09:04]
Parents
Communism
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-22

RM: What were your feelings on HUAC? What were your feelings on communism, and have they changed over time?

[00:09:35]
Communism
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-23

KW: When you come to the university, your mind starts to open. And I thought, what is HUAC? I didn't dare ask my father. I started listening, talking, and finding [out] about all the injustices, all the unfair interviews that they were having, and all the accusations they were making from a very narrow point of view. My feelings were that that was unfair and that they were overstepping their bounds [when they were] persecuting people for what they had to say. And I actually thought I'm gonna go [going to go] and see what this is all about. I went to San Francisco [for] one of the protests, and it was huge. The next day, the police came and washed them off the porch.

[00:09:44]
Communism
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-24

KW: The police came and protested against the protestors. I wasn't in on that. I don't even know if he [my father] knows I went. The other one [protest] was huge. We were walking up in crowds, being pushed, getting up to the courthouse steps, and protesting. I was probably just mimicking what anybody else was saying without a whole lot of knowledge.

[00:10:37]
Socialmovements

warren_kathleen-25

RM: Wow.

[00:11:03]

warren_kathleen-26

KW: My naive self was just trying to figure out what life was about, what the politics were about, and what discrimination was about. In middle-class San Rafael, California, right across the bay, I didn't have much conflict. I was more interested in boys, boyfriends, school, and getting into college.

[00:11:03]
Childhood

warren_kathleen-27

RM: Wow. How did that protest make you more socially aware of what was going on and change your feelings, maybe about the US?

[00:11:30]
Socialmovements
Values

warren_kathleen-28

KW: Well, [it] definitely made me distrust government because these were people who were on the Reagan side, [and] on the Republican side. But how did it make me feel?

[00:11:42]
Socialmovements
Values

warren_kathleen-29

RM: Maybe more socially aware?

[00:11:55]
Socialmovements
Values

warren_kathleen-30

KW: Oh, definitely socially aware. Yeah. When I got to Berkeley, I became social[ly] aware [because] that was a whole different area. And I don't know if you know much about Berkeley, but it's pretty open, and there were lots of protests around. We didn't have any of that in high school. We only had one black student in my high school graduating class. People, of course, would've taken his side because everybody loved him. He was a good football player. Social consciousness wasn't part of my naive self.

[00:11:57]
Childhod
Values
Diversity

warren_kathleen-31

RM: Wow.

[00:12:38]

warren_kathleen-32

KW: So, yeah. Martin Luther King also raised my consciousness about social justice. When Kennedy was elected in 1960 as a young man in his forties, he would say, "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country." That made me start thinking that I should be doing more. When he, Martin Luther King, and Bobby Kennedy was [were] assassinated, it was just outrageous. [It] was in the late sixties [when] Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. And when was Martin Luther King [assassinated]?

[00:12:39]
Discrimination
Values

warren_kathleen-33

RM: Mid-sixties, I think?

[00:13:33]

warren_kathleen-34

KW: Later, mid-sixties.

[00:13:34]

warren_kathleen-35

RM: Yeah.

[00:13:36]

warren_kathleen-36

KW: Of course, President Kennedy was [assassinated in] 1963. By that time, I was teaching school and had to explain to the kids [that President Kennedy was assassinated]. I was in the classroom when we got this announcement over the loudspeaker that the president has [had] been shot. And here I am in charge of all these seventh graders, almost a seventh grader myself. [What] am I going to tell them? I started doing a lot of research, and I wanted to tell 'em [them] about what the history of assassinations was. We didn't know who the perpetrator [was], [and] it could have been a racial thing at the time. It was very scary for me because I didn't know anything. I was naive. So, it definitely raised my consciousness. Yeah.

[00:13:36]
Education
Values

warren_kathleen-37

RM: Wow. How did the social movements impact you as a teacher, and what you taught your seventh graders?

[00:14:22]
Socialmovements
Education

warren_kathleen-38

KW: I was teaching French, English, and remedial reading. I guess it didn't, really.

[00:14:35]
Education

warren_kathleen-39

RM: Okay.

[00:14:45]

warren_kathleen-40

KW: [I guess it didn't really] except to tell them [about] that day. I'll never forget the day. And we let the kids go home at noon. I had to go home and look all that stuff up because I was just so apathetic until then.

[00:14:45]
Education

warren_kathleen-41

RM: Wow.

[00:15:02]

warren_kathleen-42

RM: Today, we have stereotyped images of hippies and the counterculture or of Vietnam soldiers and those protesting them. Did you fill any of these roles?

[00:15:05]
War
Socialmovements

warren_kathleen-43

KW: My participation [in the Hippie Movement] was more in wearing long dresses. By this time, I was married, and we did some gardening out in the country. Everything was back to nature. And I definitely had enough distrust about commercialism and the government that I enjoyed being a hippie. I never smoked, and I hardly know what marijuana smells like. So it was none of that, but it was natural [and] back to earth. [It was] don't be conservative [and] don't be conforming to the government. But, [it was] from a naive point of view.

[00:15:15]
Socialmovements
Values
Culture

warren_kathleen-44

RM: Interesting.

[00:16:07]

warren_kathleen-45

KW: Self-sufficiency and growing our own food and stuff was [were] my counterculture.

[00:16:07]
Socialmovements
Values
Culture

warren_kathleen-46

RM: Okay. Did the tendency to move away from conformity shape your desire to be nonconformist (e.g., going back to nature and avoiding commercialism)?

[00:16:17]
Values
Culture

warren_kathleen-47

KW: What shaped my desire to do that? It felt good, and it seemed right. And it was against my [parents because they] had none of that. It just seemed right, and it seemed like it was a challenge too. Let's garden and do all this stuff I didn't do when I was younger.

[00:16:34]
Values
Adulthood
Culture

warren_kathleen-48

RM: Interesting.

[00:17:07]

warren_kathleen-49

KW: Not a very deep answer to that question. There was a magazine called Mother Earth, and we got that. We actually moved out of the country in 1965. At that point, we put in a garden, and I started growing my food. And I had a neighbor down the road who had a big garden and taught me about canning and all that kind of stuff. I had never been [into] any of that. That seems clean and healthy, with no pesticides till later. Yeah.

[00:17:07]
Values
Adulthood
Culture

warren_kathleen-50

RM: Interesting. I know the Cold War was still going on well into the sixties.

[00:17:41]
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-51

KW: The war was going on into the eighties before the wall went down.

[00:17:54]
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-52

RM: Yeah. Did the events of the Cold War make you worried [about] the future? What about today?

[00:17:59]
Communism
Future
Coldwar

warren_kathleen-53

KW: In Moscow, Idaho, I was totally separated from everything. They were worried, and there was talk about Russia bombing us a lot. I don't think we had bomb shelters, but we were all taught in school to put our hands on our necks and get underneath our desks [Duck and Cover Drills]. That was standard procedure when I was younger. My father actually moved from Wisconsin in the forties [before the] Cold War. He moved [because] there was a person who was in the [same] job [he was in that] did not want to come to San Francisco because they were sure that San Francisco would be the first place to be bombed. He [my father] was a salesman for some food packaging [company]. So, he stayed in [the] Midwest, and my dad and our family moved out to the West Coast. All of that always carried through. Although [when] the war ended, we didn't think too much about it, but then the Cold War started. I wasn't aware of the actual details of it, but I knew the word "Cold War." I knew the threat we had of being bombed. I didn't know what to do about it, so it didn't affect me.

[00:18:05]
Communism
Coldwar
Family

warren_kathleen-54

RM: Okay. That's interesting. What major historical events do you remember hearing about most of the time? Did this event even impact your life? What was your initial reaction to hearing it, and how did your family get the news?

[00:19:30]
News

warren_kathleen-55

KW: The assassinations were probably the biggest thing, then the Vietnam War and the student uprisings. Then, TV came in, but my family didn't have a TV until quite a big later in the fifties. In the sixties, my husband and I didn't have TV that much. We got the news through the newspapers and some TV. All the kids were talking about 'em [them], of course. The assassinations were all over everything [including] the radio, TV, [and] newspapers, but there was no internet. You probably have no idea what that was like, but you had nothing to look at. The phone was in the house. When I walked into the house, we [would] say, "I wonder if anyone called today." And no one would call. There wouldn't be anyone even who would call you. Someone on the street might tell you, [which was] one way we got the news about the assassinations and so forth. People would say, "did you hear this?" Well, you were watching TV, and I wasn't. I learned it from people on the street.

[00:19:47]
News

warren_kathleen-56

RM: Wow. How did your life and the lives of your seventh graders change after Kennedy was assassinated? How did vibes in the country change overnight when LBJ took over?

[00:20:57]
Education
Values
Culture
Change

warren_kathleen-57

KW: Again, I started teaching French and English. It didn't change my teaching. Maybe in the back of my head, I was more worried, but I was outraged. I would say that the sixties were a period when people learned to be outraged [about] injustice, horror, and murder. My outrage did continue. I'm kind of a calm person, and I didn't jump up and down. I don't believe in segregation, so I'm okay. I don't have to do anything, or if a black person came to my house, I'd let 'em [them] in. You already know what you're gonna [going to] do, so you don't have to go out and shout to influence other people.

[00:21:21]
Education
Values
Culture
Change

warren_kathleen-58

RM: Okay.

[00:22:25]

warren_kathleen-59

KW: I don't think I even talk[ed] to my students about [this]. We had this picture that was always in everybody's mind of the little black girl walking into the school and the feds walking with her and getting her into the school. And I thought that was great. I assumed the government was gonna [going to] take over and make it alright. It didn't always happen that way.

[00:22:25]
Education
Values
Culture
Change

warren_kathleen-60

RM: You've discussed a lot about [how] your [viewpoints about] the government [changed]. Can you elaborate on that a little further? What were your attitudes toward the government before, during, and after [the sixties]?

[00:22:55]
Change
Values
Government

warren_kathleen-61

KW: The transition would be from acceptance to doubt to outrage. Is that good enough?

[00:23:11]
Change
Values
Government

warren_kathleen-62

RM: Yeah,

[00:23:19]

warren_kathleen-63

KW: Why don't they help us? My parents weren't Republicans, so that was always states' rights. It's not for the government to do; it's for individuals to do, which I learned from Barry Goldwater when [he] started giving all of his talks about how it's trickled down, and [how] this is gonna [going to] work. If we elect Republicans and powerful people, then they're gonna [going to] change employment. That's gonna [going to] help the poor people and the people at the bottom of the chain. And that's not true. I realized that [when] I saw that it wasn't happening there. Poverty was still growing, and I felt the government should step in, but I didn't do much about it.

[00:23:21]
Values
Government

warren_kathleen-64

RM: Okay.

[00:24:17]

warren_kathleen-65

KW: Apathetic.

[00:24:18]
Values

warren_kathleen-66

RM: What do you think was the best aspect of the 1960s? What do you wish American society still possessed?

[00:24:20]
Culture
Change
Values

warren_kathleen-67

KW: Well, let's see. I think the best part was the social consciousness. We became more conscious of diversity. Folk music came back because people were talking more about the origins of American music. And we started thinking more about what our potential is, which wasn't being realized. TV was huge. I guess you would say that was a good thing because we certainly were able to inform ourselves better. I think the hippie movement (e.g., the flowers, the natural, and loving everybody) was good, except for the drug part of it. The love from churches became secular. I think that probably was a good movement. Let's see. Probably what has changed most since the sixties is the Internet, [which] is far more influential than TV. We have instant responses, [which] in a way is bad because we react rather than reflect. In a way, that's also good because everything boils to our consciousness faster. And we're able to think about what we're gonna [going to] do. I'm a naive idealist, so I can't tell you what a conservative extremist would say.

[00:24:27]
Culture
Change
Values

warren_kathleen-68

RM: How do you think your "naive idealism" [has] shaped your world[view] about life in the sixties?

[00:26:15]
Values

warren_kathleen-69

KW: [It] just put me more into shock, [and] at least started opening up my moral mind. It didn't, except for the time at the NAACP and HUAC, lead me into too much activism, but I knew I should be. I also was always a scholar and always a student, so I was always interested. And that was a good excuse; you gotta [have to] study. I married my high school sweetheart, so we got to start our lives. My husband was not an activist at all either, so he influenced me.

[00:26:34]
Education
Values

warren_kathleen-70

RM: Okay. Do you think your life as a student and scholar acted as its own form of activism? [Did] being able to research what was going on make you aware of US history in general?

[00:27:18]
Education
Values

warren_kathleen-71

KW: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I was in communications and German. When I studied German history, [it] all of a sudden opened my eyes a little bit more. Everybody knew Nazism was bad, but no one really knew the horrors of it until you studied [the] details. And a little outrage came. I'm sorry. I'm not very deep.

[00:27:32]
Education
Values

warren_kathleen-72

RM: This has really been great.

[00:28:01]

warren_kathleen-73

KW: Well, thank you.

[00:28:05]

warren_kathleen-74

RM: Yeah.

[00:28:06]

warren_kathleen-75

KW: Women's role in the home has changed considerably. And it started changing then too. I was a little outraged that all I would be [was] a teacher or a nurse, and I was set on being something else. I could be a professor, but I ended up being a teacher, and I loved it. I loved the kids. [While] people put [being] in the home down, I liked being home, and I liked my kids. I did a lot besides that. I got my master's degree, studied, [and] I had an arch program. That made my consciousness grow about how women could do more. But I also found out that [by] being home, I could do more. I could do anything I wanted anyway, so I started an arch program, welding, and doing more outrageous things.

[00:28:07]
Change
Culture

warren_kathleen-76

RM: What things are the same now [as they were] in the sixties?

[00:29:13]
Change

warren_kathleen-77

KW: The social consciousness [is the same and has] grown. [One difference] is the church. Church attendance [has] drop[ped] considerably. [Its] influence is not there. I go to a Presbyterian Church, and that has stayed the same [for some of us]. Although, maybe I realize more of the importance of it because I see it deteriorating around me. The best thing about it [is] this consciousness-raising.

[00:29:20]
Change

warren_kathleen-78

RM: Yeah. What is one piece of advice from your experiences that you would give to young college student activists today?

[00:29:55]
Education
Values
Change

warren_kathleen-79

KW: Keep activising [and] keep being active. Don't put your head in the sand because that's how Trump got elected. Should I say that on there? That's how Trump got elected because we just didn't pay attention. We didn't pay attention enough to do something. I don't know how you feel about that.

[00:30:05]
Change
Values

warren_kathleen-80

RM: I don't know if I'm much of an activist. I'm more like you were trying to hunker down and get stuff done.

[00:30:30]

warren_kathleen-81

KW: Get stuff done, right? Yeah. On the other hand, we found [that] when this liar came into power, what happens when you're apathetic. During the last election, I let people give me letters to write, and I wrote letters for the Georgia election. I don't know if that helped, but we did get more. We did get that equal representation in Congress. I think it helps, and I'm still more apathetic than I should be, but I think that students should be aware that you are the next generation. You're the one[s] that [are] gonna [going to] carry on morals, and getting people elected who are fair, and getting debates back again. The Republicans won't even debate because they're so set without compromise, [and] without trying to see other people's point of view. If I would say anything to students, [it is to] stay active, keep your mind active, and do something (e.g., write a letter during an election for someone you want). Do something because you believe in it.

[00:30:37]
Change
Values

warren_kathleen-82

RM: Wow.

warren_kathleen-83

KW: Is that it?

[00:32:06]

warren_kathleen-84

RM: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:32:06]

warren_kathleen-85

KW: You're welcome. The thing[s] that [have]come more about [now] that didn't happen then was [were] homeless, drugs, and alcohol altering people. And I think we really need to be active against the things that change your mind because we are people. Maybe that's where I was ideal when I was young because there just weren't a lot of drugs around. My parents drank socially, but it was never serious. Now, I was also very naive. In the streets of San Francisco, I'm sure there were still people drunk and doing all kinds of bad things. I wasn't unaware of 'em [them]. The main thing [to do] is to work for mental health cuz [because] homelessness and poverty are connected to our lack of activism and mental health.

[00:32:08]
Change

warren_kathleen-86

KW: After people stopped giving a lot of attention to mental health, everything started to go down. My husband, for instance, ran away when he wanted to change majors and become an English major [instead of] a business [major]. And he hadn't read all the literature, so he ran away with a backpack full of books and stayed in a hobo camp, [which was] very poor. They were funny, but it wasn't a serious drug or violence problem. We need to keep working against homelessness and poverty and [continue to] help people. [While] the government [is] doing more now, we need to stock food banks. We need to help people. We need to bring people in, get them jobs, and that kind of thing.

[00:33:05]
Change

warren_kathleen-87

RM: Wow.

[00:34:04]

warren_kathleen-88

KW: That need has grown.

[00:34:05]

warren_kathleen-89

RM: Definitely. Yeah.

[00:34:10]

warren_kathleen-90

KW: Yeah, I think that's it. The concept of family has changed too. I guess it's good that it brought into the open people who are homosexual and don't have conventional makeup. And that's fine. We are much more accepting, and that's good because it was there and just hidden. It was affecting people that we didn't even know about. Yeah.

[00:34:16]
Culture
Change
Values
Family

warren_kathleen-91

RM: Would you say that [America's] more accepting attitude and the change of family [dynamics] began during the sixties?

[00:34:47]
Family
Change

warren_kathleen-92

KW: No, it didn't begin in the sixties. The sixties were "Leave it to Beaver," [where] everything was conventional as far as family goes. You had to have a mother, [a] father, and a child. Divorce was horrible. People I knew got divorced, [which] just shocked me and hurt me. It was total naivete about human relationships.

[00:35:00]
Family
Change

warren_kathleen-93

RM: Wow.

[00:35:26]

warren_kathleen-94

KW: Now I think that's good and more accepting. We're more ready to step in and help if gay people need help. I think that's a much better attitude than my father had [toward] gay people or black people. But he was still a good guy, but he was a product of his time.

[00:35:26]
Gender
Sexuality
Parents
Change

warren_kathleen-95

RM: Right. This has been enlightening.

[00:35:53]

warren_kathleen-96

KW: Oh gosh. That's amazing.

[00:35:59]

warren_kathleen-97

RM: Yeah.

[00:36:02]

warren_kathleen-98

KW: Okay. I think that's about it.

[00:36:02]

Akin_ron

Akin_Ron-1

Christian Akin: OK so we'll start with what year were you born and where?

Akin_Ron-2

Ron Akin: 1948 Placerville CA.

childhood

Akin_Ron-3

CA: So, what age range would that have made you during the 1960s?

Akin_Ron-4

RA: Well 48. I would have been 12 in 1960.

childhood

Akin_Ron-5

CA: OK so you were a child for the most part during the 60s.

Akin_Ron-6

RA: Well, I graduated high school in 66. Went to the military in 66.

childhood

Akin_Ron-7

CA: Throughout the 60s how would you best describe yourself and what characterized your values at the time?

Akin_Ron-8

RA: Work ethic from my dad probably. I mean everything that I did was based on what he taught me so what was the question again how do I characterize.

sociallife

Akin_Ron-9

CA: How would you best describe yourself in the 60's and then what characterized your values at that time?

Akin_Ron-10

RA: Well obviously I was youthful I mean just graduated high school in the mid-60s.

sociallife

Akin_Ron-11

CA: So, what was the broader culture like in your community growing up was there any big changes that you were aware of?

Akin_Ron-12

RA: Not really. You know Templeton and Paso Robles were very small towns there was very little. Are you talking nationally, internationally, or just in town.

sociallife

Akin_Ron-13

CA: Sort of national. All the events that were going on during the 60s. How aware of them were you living in a small rural town?

Akin_Ron-14

RA: I didn't follow politics a whole lot, but the Vietnam War was going on and I joined and went over there.

Vietnam

Akin_Ron-15

CA: I'll just jump to the Vietnam questions then. Were you drafted, or did you volunteer?

Akin_Ron-16

RA: I volunteered. I had three brothers. Two already in the Air Force and one in the Marine Corps, so I joined the Air Force.

Vietnam

Akin_Ron-17

CA: If you care to explain, what were some of your experiences that were most memorable in the military?

Akin_Ron-18

RA: I mean for the most part other than Vietnam it was like a regular job. You get up and go to work and you go home and it's like being an employee anywhere else. It wasn't difficult at all. Vietnam wasn't difficult for me. I was a power production specialist and I worked on diesel generators and providing power to the base because our all of our equipment was a different voltage than the equipment at the voltage that they use over there, so we had to produce our own power but again that was pretty much like a regular job too. Other than rocket attacks and gun fire and that type of stuff I didn't do any combat.

Vietnam

Akin_Ron-19

CA: So even though you viewed your military service as a job, while you were over in Vietnam did how you felt about America as a global leader change through your experiences?

Akin_Ron-20

RA: No, not at all.

Vietnam
opinion

Akin_Ron-21

CA: Were your thoughts on communism then still the same as they are now?

Akin_Ron-22

RA: Yes.

communism
opinion

Akin_Ron-23

CA: Was there any civil rights movements or maybe the introduction of the counterculture or you know anything pertaining to that time period? Was there any major historical events that you remember seeing on the news? Where there any of them that impacted you?

Akin_Ron-24

RA: I can't remember the date, so I don't know if the work of Martin Luther King was in the 60s or not. You know I don't know. It didn't really affect us much because we weren't exposed to a lot of that. For one in the military, you know. I'm trying to think of anything that was substantial other than Martin Luther King I can't remember. I remember some of the music from the 60s, but I don't remember much about the political climate

civilrights

Akin_Ron-25

CA: Was there any music or artist that you listened to especially?

Akin_Ron-26

RA: I was always a fan of country western music, so I didn't really listen to a whole lot of the popular stuff. Certainly, I don't think rap was out there. Heavy metal I did not like, but I think that was probably more in the 70s. Still don't like it. The Mamas and the Papas and Creedence Clearwater, people like that, I would listen to stuff like that.

music

Akin_Ron-27

CA: Listening to country western and stuff like that did you think that music was at that time a primary tool for promoting social change or do you think it was kind of just mainly for entertainment purposes?

Akin_Ron-28

RA: I think in that time especially country western was just for entertainment. I didn't see any indication anyone was trying to create any social change

music

Akin_Ron-29

CA: Besides you mentioning Martin Luther King, was there any other kind of social movements that you were aware of at that time?

Akin_Ron-30

RA: You'd had to let me do a little homework to figure this out. That was a long time ago. I can't think of any Christian, you know, other than the equal rights movement I don't recall there being anything. Well, I don't know when the hippies started with the free love and all that Woodstock. I don't think that was in the 60s, but it could have been

socialmovements

Akin_Ron-31

CA: Did you have any interactions with some of that stuff or was it more just a distant thing?

Akin_Ron-32

RA: No, I didn't have any interaction with any of that. You talking about the free love and all that? The Hippie movement?

socialmovements

Akin_Ron-33

CA: Yes. Was there any movement or was there any sort of civil rights event in town that you might have gone to or walked by or maybe you walked by a protest or something?

Akin_Ron-34

RA: There really wasn't any protesting in the areas where I had been. I lived in, for a brief period, San Bernardino California which was a fairly big city. I don't recall any kind of protests and people weren't protesting. This wasn't commonly done in those areas.

socialmovements

Akin_Ron-35

CA: Well in your opinion what has changed the most since the 1960s maybe as far as society goes family values, and then what things are more or less the same?

Akin_Ron-36

RA: well, I don't think anything is the same. Family values have almost completely disappeared. Respect for authority is nearly completely gone and in a lot of settings. The lack of respect in the country in terms of even saying the Pledge of Allegiance in a classroom, the lack of the ability to discuss any sort of religion classrooms is deteriorating the country. So, in my opinion, nothing is the same and none of it has changed for the better.

change

Akin_Ron-37

CA: I do believe that was the majority of the questions that I had unless there's anything else about you living through that time that you felt was significant for people to know now?

Akin_Ron-38

RA: Well, you know I'm just kind of an ordinary person. I don't recall having anything happened to me, or anything I did and there wasn't particularly anything interesting or exciting. Just work and I went to work for the Sheriff's Department the same day I got out of the military. November 16th of 1970 one year into the 70s.

sociallife

Akin_Ron-39

CA: Was there any experiences from your time as a sheriff that maybe had changed your perspective, or did you find yourself in any sort of run ins with some of these societal changes?

Akin_Ron-40

RA: Well yeah we did. I mean there were the riots in Isla Vista during my ten years in the Sheriffs department. It was pretty much all out war. The cops against the protesters. That was the 70s.

socialmovements

Akin_Ron-41

CA: Any time during those protests did you ever think about why they were doing it did you have any experiences that might have changed your opinion on what they were doing or did you just kind of think it was wrong?

Akin_Ron-42

RA: Well obviously it was wrong because it was against the law, and I was there representing the law. But that whole movement, as far as I was concerned, was anti-war. Make Love not war that kind of thing you know.

values

Akin_Ron-43

RA: I proudly went to Vietnam and served for my country because I was asked to. Not asked, I was told to. Lot of those people didn't like what was going on in the government and I can't say that I blame them. I don't like what's going on in the government today but I'm not going to go out and protest and burn down buildings and turn over police cars. There are other ways to accomplish those things and they're getting more and more difficult to accomplish because voting doesn't seem to be the answer.

values

Akin_Ron-44

CA: So, would you say that during that time after the war and during your time as a sheriff that you found yourself getting more into politics because of some of the things you had seen?

Akin_Ron-45

RA: I don't think so much politics, you know. I mean we had a job to do and essentially I've always been a conservative so anything that was left wing I wasn't in favor of and still not.

values

Akin_Ron-46

CA: Well, that's all the questions that I have for you, and I greatly appreciate your participation in my oral history project

Akin_Ron-47

RA: I'm happy to do it Christian I wish I had better answers. I just don't remember that time very well and if you think about graduating from high school and joining the military it's a radical change to your lifestyle so that four year period from 66 to 70 I was basically structured, and you're told what to do and when to be there and how long. You know you're not making a whole lot of decisions on your own.

opinion

Akin_Ron-48

CA: Then it kind of seems like it sort of structured your life, you know, for the rest of your life.

Akin_Ron-49

RA: I still write things organized, you know, kind of in a straight line. If things are crooked I'll straighten them up. I don't mean people. I just mean like things on the shelf or on a table or something like that like. I will line them up. I don't know if that's from the military or it's just because I'm OCD or anal retentive or something like that. I don't know. I hope that this helps.

values

Akin_Ron-50

CA: Definitely. I mean for the most part it's really any perspectives that help. You know there are some people who can talk your ear off for hours and then there are others, where like you said yourself, for the most part focused on working but I feel like from the sounds of it you at least had some experiences. Probably your time in the military and being a sheriff kind of helped you realize that there's a law and order that should be followed and when we look back at the 60s we don't necessarily see that. We see that shift from that 1940s and 1950s very structural, patriarchal families then we start seeing a big shift.

Akin_Ron-51

RA: Yeah that's true. Up into the 70s it really started getting bad.

opinion

Akin_Ron-52

CA: Well great thank you for answering my questions and providing us with some of your perspectives from the 1960s and 1970s.

Akin_Ron-53

RA: You're welcome Christian, glad I could help.

Akin_Ron-54

Bio: I Interviewed my grandfather, Ron Akin, about what was life like while growing up in the 60s and 70s. The interview covered topics such as growing up in rural communities, music, The Vietnam War, and time as a sheriff during social revolutions. Born in 1948, in Placerville California, Ron was in middle school and high school from 1960 to 1966. Immediately after school Ron joined the military and was shipped to Vietnam. As a power supply specialist, he did not see much combat but rather viewed his military service as a job. After the military Ron joined the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department where he experienced the Isla Vista Riots in 1970. Living in rural areas, Ron described himself as a simple person who focused on work and not so much the social issues of the time period.

Hunter_jay

hunter_jay-1

Emilie Baeth-Walter: Perfect so let's just start off with your name.

hunter_jay-2

Jay Hunter: Jay hunter

hunter_jay-3

EBW: Jay Hunter and you said you were tired now?

hunter_jay-4

JH: Just retired a year ago.

hunter_jay-5

EBW: What did you do?

hunter_jay-6

JH: I was an ER physician for about 41 years enlisted.

hunter_jay-7

EBW: That's cool, that's cool. Okay um, alright let's just get right to it, is that ok? Alright do you have any questions for me before we start?

hunter_jay-8

JH: No.

hunter_jay-9

EBW: Okay alright, so what music or artists were you listening to in the '60s?

music

hunter_jay-10

JH: So the first group that was really enthralled with, I was just a little bit too young for Elvis...

music

hunter_jay-11

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-12

JH: ... yeah and it was the Beatles. So first junior high dance I went to we danced to beat The Beatles, the premier album their first album in the US.

music

hunter_jay-13

EBW: I love that. Umm, and off that question do you think music was primarily about partying or about social change? Um especially civil rights or the anti war movement?

music
war
socialmovements

hunter_jay-14

JH: I would say mostly about social change and a lot of the anti-war movement.

music
war
socialmovements

hunter_jay-15

EBW: Could you like elaborate on that? Like what was the feeling?

hunter_jay-16

JH: The Vietnam War probably defined a lot of the '60s. It was, I mean I think Korea was the first undeclared war, but it was run under the auspices of the UN if I'm correct and it only lasted three years. And by the time I was high school looking at draft age, we were deeply involved in Vietnam. Escalating I think you know probably by 1967 or 8 everybody knew that it was not a winnable war. We wondered why we were there, and retrospect you're looking at how Hachiman and things, that's even more questionable why we've got involved. But just this gradual so as undeclared and unlike the undeclared wars now, which I also don't think much of there was a draft so there were not volunteers people were being taken against your will who did not wanna fight, did not believe in the war, did not wanna be there except for Vietnam. And the casualty figures by compared with Iraq war, I mean hundreds of people killed every week.

music
war
socialmovements

hunter_jay-17

EBW: Yeah, uh were you draft age?

draft

hunter_jay-18

JH: I was not, I still was under student deferment when I started the U of I in 1969. So, so if you went to college full time you had a 1-S or 2-S, I can't remember.

draft

hunter_jay-19

EBW: Yeah, I think it's like 2 something.

hunter_jay-20

JH: Yeah, and that ended beginning of my junior year.

draft

hunter_jay-21

EBW: Okay.

hunter_jay-22

JH: They got rid of the student deferment and they uh... but by that time the war was clearly winding down, the US beginning to withdrawal and was not a big issue.

draft

hunter_jay-23

EBW: So you didn't have to, I guess you necessarily didn't have to worry about being drafted because you had the student deferment.

draft

hunter_jay-24

JH: Not really. My number was 160 or something in the middle of the calendar, and the US was at the peace table by the time. They took the 1-SD turned them away and it was clear that we were... we were leaving Vietnam by that time.

draft

hunter_jay-25

EBW: Did you have friends that got drafted?

draft

hunter_jay-26

JH: I personally did not know anyone that got drafted. I knew a lot of people went to college just to avoid the draft.

draft

hunter_jay-27

EBW: Yeah, um I guess going back to music, is there a band or song that you think captured the feeling of the era on an emotional level for you?

music

hunter_jay-28

JH: Umm, gosh that would be hard to uh... you know I think like "All Along the Watchtower," by Jimi Hendrix. And I can't remember the artist but there's one called "War" and Arlo Guthrie's "Vietnam", you heard that song?

music

hunter_jay-29

EBW: I've heard "Fortunate Son" CCR [Creedence Clearwater Revival].

hunter_jay-30

JH: "One, two, three, what are we fighting for? Don't ask why we don't give a damn."

hunter_jay-31

EBW: Yes I have, yeah.

hunter_jay-32

JH: Led Zeppelin was also the beginning of the psychedelic era. There's a lot of experimentation with LSD. And Led Zeppelin was... when you really like to listen to it if you were taking shrooms.

music

hunter_jay-33

EBW: Yeah, more socially. So like CCR "Fortunate Son" type things.

hunter_jay-34

JH: CCR was more of a party...

music

hunter_jay-35

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-36

JH: But yeah, but like drink beer and put on Creedence Clearwater Revival.

music

hunter_jay-37

EBW: What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War? I know you weren't technically...

vietnam

hunter_jay-38

JH: I thought it was a total waste of people. I mean it was even worse for the Vietnamese than it was us. It was misguided and it was a big mistake. And I thought after the tragedy of the Vietnam War the US would learn their lesson but apparently we haven't.

vietnam

hunter_jay-39

EBW: Did it change how you felt about America as a global leader entering into Vietnam? Did it change your viewpoint?

vietnam

hunter_jay-40

JH: It was also a time with... so in early '60s the big thing was communism was gonna take over and we were scared because the Russians put the first satellite in orbit, the Russians put the first man in space and it's like we've got to catch up. And so there was a little bit of that pride in America you know landing on the moon in '69, the year I graduated from high school. It's also [cough]...

hunter_jay-41

EBW: No you're fine.

hunter_jay-42

... a major source of pride for the US, and so there's a lot of hope I think for the US just... The Vietnam war really made us anti-military and anti-government. I mean not the, not the soldiers. We didn't hate the people that drafted and went to Vietnam. But you know if I was shut down I could see myself doing some years of service, it wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't be totally opposed to it. But back then it was no way, no way would I ever wanna be in the military or any association with military.

hunter_jay-43

EBW: So hateful feelings towards the military?

values

hunter_jay-44

JH: We were just talking, my son and I went to the football game this weekend and we saw a big picture of Dr. Green, and they were cheering when he came on.

hunter_jay-45

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-46

JH: And I don't know why I was talking, I saw it happen when "Wilson Hurst Had a Hard Time" was printed when I was in school in the late '60s. The students had rallies supporting hard time it was really a unique rally because schools across the nation, the administration building were being occupied by protesters and ... and we had a president everybody liked so supporting him.

family
socialmovements

hunter_jay-47

EBW: That's cool.

hunter_jay-48

EBW: What social movements were you aware of at the time?

socialmovements

hunter_jay-49

JH: Well civil rights would be the big one. That Martin Luther King was assassinated when I was a junior in high school. Senior year probably Kennedy. Bus rides to Mississippi. But we didn't have a lot of it here because Idaho is such a jar of mayonnaise. Very few blacks in you know... so we didn't have the racial [issues]. There are other racial issues. There was prejudice against the Indians, Native Americans. Subtle but not over. I can remember when George Wallace, standing on the news, standing on the steps to the University of Alabama swearing he would not allow black students. The riots, the Black Panther movement, but also blacks and Bobby Seale and yeah. It wasn't right here, but it was part of the culture and those were social movements wherever whether it was the antiwar movement.

civil rights
segregation

hunter_jay-50

EBW: Did you guys talk about them a lot?

hunter_jay-51

JH: Yeah.

hunter_jay-52

EBW: Like in, I guess school like how today we would talk about abortion rights 'cause that's a big thing for us right now. And the presidential campaigns we would talk a lot about in school.

socialmovements

hunter_jay-53

JH: Yeah, well I was a chemistry major, in most of my classes we didn't talk about politics.

hunter_jay-54

EBW: Well like amongst your friends though.

hunter_jay-55

JH: Yeah, yeah oh definitely. We thought... we felt a lot... a lot of togetherness for maturing us. So we all had similar ideas, we all had similar thoughts about the pressures of the South and all over. The discrimination laws, the war...

hunter_jay-56

EBW: Were you guys mainly against it up here?

JH: Yeah.

EBW: Yeah?

JH: Oh totally.

EBW: Really okay, well I wouldn't know.

hunter_jay-61

JH: So it's kinda like if you go to university right now, how many people are still supporting Trump? Not very many because... I mean I don't know.

Politics

hunter_jay-62

EBW: It's true, it's just I live in rural, more rural Idaho, so a lot more Trump supporters and what not.

hunter_jay-63

JH: Well I lived in Troy and worked in Lewiston. So there's a lot of support for him in Idaho.

Politics
Childhood

hunter_jay-64

EBW: Oh I thought you meant Montana [Troy, Mt]. Libby, Montana is where my family is from.

hunter_jay-65

JH: Where did you grow up?

hunter_jay-66

EBW: My family grew up, well is from Libby, Montana. But my dad lives in Bayview, Idaho and my mom lives in Spokane, Washington.

hunter_jay-67

JH: Oh, okay.

hunter_jay-68

EBW: So a little all over, but mainly Pacific Northwest.

hunter_jay-69

EBW: So back to social movements, how did your parents or community feel about them? So were there a lot of like parents that were agreeing with you or do you...?

socialmovements

hunter_jay-70

JH: My parents didn't talk, they weren't very political. My grandparents had pictures of the Kennedy's on their wall. so we were quietly liberal and democratic i think. But politics wasn't uh, you know my wife's family was very republican and they were very over talking about things in life. That, that my family just politics was polite and you didn't talk about it and argue with people about it.

socialmovements
Politics

hunter_jay-71

EBW: Interesting yeah I really like that aspect.

hunter_jay-72

JH: Oh, I do too.

hunter_jay-73

EBW: How did you feel about their leaders? So like SNCC, and like MLK, and like Malcolm X, and stuff like that. Did you agree with them? Did you think some were more radical?

socialmovements

hunter_jay-74

JH: I didn't know that much about Malcolm X. I read Martin Luther King certainly. I agreed with him, with the philosophy that followed Gandhi.

hunter_jay-75

EBW: Are you familiar with SNCC?

hunter_jay-76

JH: No.

hunter_jay-77

EBW: It's S-N-C-C.

hunter_jay-78

JH: What does it stand for?

hunter_jay-79

EBW: Oh, Southern New Christian...

hunter_jay-80

JH: Actually I'm not.

hunter_jay-81

EBW: Okay, interesting. Um yeah, there were a lot of them involved, but that's weird that it didn't reach up here that much. 'Cause we're talking about it now obviously in our class.

hunter_jay-82

EBW: Alright, okay so today we have stereotyped images of hippies and the counterculture, or Vietnam soldiers and those protesting them, did you fill any of these roles? By chance were you like...

sociallife
culture

hunter_jay-83

JH: Yeah, so these roles are the hippie or the...

hunter_jay-84

EBW: Yeah hippie, any of the stereotypes.

hunter_jay-85

JH: I was influenced by the hippie culture probably. Yeah, again we're a little bit isolated here in Northern Idaho. So winds of change blow a little across the top of us. But still, it's part of the culture and... yeah we just, I... we were pretty typical high school kids in the '60s probably. I didn't really drink like things, but I did with the mobile library that came around from Spokane Library, I did read Timothy Leary's book on LSD, got interested and...

sociallife
culture

hunter_jay-86

EBW: Yeah [both laughing].

hunter_jay-87

JH: By the time I was a senior in high school I was talking about things we'd like to experience.

hunter_jay-88

EBW: Interesting, okay. So you would classify yourself I guess as a hippie, as in that stereotype?

hunter_jay-89

JH: Not completely. Yeah, probably much closer to hippie than military person.

hunter_jay-90

EBW: What do you think was the best aspect of the '60s?

values

hunter_jay-91

JH: You know, the problem is we all look back at the years. I started the '60s at nine years old and 1971 turned 20's. So that was my years where we all look back, and with fondness. So those are that childhood and high school memories and the college memories with all your friends and everything was kind of idealized overtime. But I think one of the nice things, I was thinking about it on the way over here, were the nice things about the '60s around here was... the small towns were more complete. You know people that live in say, Troy or Genesee, and commute to work [modern day], everything was done there. so I grew up in Troy which always had 555 people. There's an old joke about the reason small town population never changes. It's that every time a girl gets pregnant the guy leaves town. Anyway with a population less than 600 we had you know, lumber supply, hardware stores, gas stations, mechanic supplies, farming, restaurants. So really didn't have to leave town for anything other than if you wanted to buy furniture, or maybe a television, or a car. And so people, even though I grew up in Troy, rarely came to Moscow to shop. Because who would waste 35 cents a gallon just to go to Moscow? It was a close knit small community, people had been there for a longtime. And we never locked our doors. We left on rare Vacations for a week, and we left the doors to the house open. People left the keys in ignition.

childhood

hunter_jay-92

EBW: Really?

hunter_jay-93

JH: Yeah. One of my friends recently said, "Of course I left my keys in the pickup. What if the neighbor wanted to borrow it and I wasn't home?" You know, just because of some strange person going into your house, it would be seen by the neighbors. so it's just never worry about car theft. I never... I never saw a fistfight between people from the time I was in grade school to the time I graduated from high school. I mean that's how sort of safe and inviting the environment was. I grew up in a neighborhood of eight or nine boys around the same age, and their parents were like secondary parents to me. we got in trouble we were, you know did things. but why I was always inhibited because Betty and Clyde or Burt and Mary down the street. I might disappoint them too because they're like my parents. I didn't want to be too out of line.

hunter_jay-94

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-95

EBW: So it's just really... and of course there was no Internet,no computer. and the cars were not very reliable, and flat tires frequently, and the gas gauge, and it could run out of gas. And sometimes it wouldn't start in the morning. So we weren't nearly as mobile, so it's more of a... not strictly but like the Andy Griffith show. Everybody kind of knew each other and even though not everybody got along, nobody hated each other. People are pretty tolerant of [each other].

childhood

hunter_jay-96

EBW: Everybody knew everybody's business pretty much, is stuff like that?

hunter_jay-97

JH: And now with the more mobile society, with the... my parents had the grocery store Troy with my Uncle's family, I don't think the grocery store could make it now 'cause people are driving out within 15 minutes.

hunter_jay-98

EBW: So the town is not like that anymore?

hunter_jay-99

JH: No, the town has lost a lot of things. That's because a lot of people live there but commute so they're not quite... there's still community spirit, but not quite community spirit. Kendrick for example is just far enough away from Lewiston, it's not quite as easy to do that. So they have a nice grocery store, I think they kept their sense of community more. Genesee is probably more of a commuter camp now too.

change

hunter_jay-100

EBW: So you say like mobility, like easier access?

hunter_jay-101

JH: Yeah it's mobility and people just... [pause]

hunter_jay-102

EBW: So like people back then I guess everybody kind of supported everyone like you know?

hunter_jay-103

JH: Yeah well...

hunter_jay-104

EBW: You bought groceries...

hunter_jay-105

JH: We knew each other, everything about each other.

hunter_jay-106

EBW: But like, in this sense that like businesses...

hunter_jay-107

JH: Party lines were like for five families in the same line. You picked up the phone, you can hear your neighbor.

hunter_jay-108

EBW: Really? I love that. What do you wish America, American Society still possessed about that culture?

culture
change

hunter_jay-109

JH: I right now, the biggest thing I wish they possessed was civility and tolerance to people with different ideas. As a liberal we're just as bad as the Trump conservatives who we hate so much. So probably just need to stop and consider the other. We need to be more civil in politics.

politics

hunter_jay-110

EBW: I find that too.

hunter_jay-111

JH: You know in the '60s Tip [O'Neill] the old speaker of the house would get up and shout and argue with one of the Kennedy's on the 7th floor over a bill and they would violently oppose each other, then they'd gone to dinner at night. And it was the same way, again like my parents weren't political so we liked people totally different. Hell well I worked with, I worked with doctors that were totally-total conservatives, but I knew personally I liked them and they liked me and politics never made us just dislike each other and we were still socially interactive. I wish the whole country was more like that.

politics
culture

hunter_jay-112

EBW: That is a really refreshing point of view, especially, yeah I think a lot of people are caught up in that.

hunter_jay-113

JH: Again, part of the problem is confirmation bias is it, you know if you believe or people believe that Ivermectin cures Covid, which there's good science that says it doesn't do anything. But I think people on the Internet find all these sites and find you know one infectious disease doctor out of 200 that believes it probably because their political beliefs and then they grab onto that and they read more things on their favorite more things.

hunter_jay-114

EBW: So you think like...

hunter_jay-115

JH: Yeah, it's unfortunately the Internet instead of broadening our education, allows us to narrow it.

culture
education

hunter_jay-116

EBW: No fact checking.

hunter_jay-117

JH: Yeah, so we could we could just read the things that we agree with and strengthen our beliefs, and straight from the fact that other people are totally wrong about it.

hunter_jay-118

EBW: So you think the Internet has kind of more separated the two parties, whereas like before you're saying like they could like have a civil conversation or not but then later they can meet up? But today is more of a civil conversation and then they don't talk to each other at all and they argue.

politics

hunter_jay-119

JH: It's hard to dislike somebody when you meet them personally. Most people, most people you meet, find things to like. And if their views are really different than yours about how things should be run in America you can still deal with it. Make it pass over their specific views. But if you're typing away, on the internet it's easy, it's easy to type, you know the old days you had to write a letter.

hunter_jay-120

EBW: Yeah, a lot more personal.

hunter_jay-121

JH: If you were mad at somebody you would write this letter, "you son of a bitch" you know, 'never wanna see you again' and they get to the mail the next day, and by the next day they'd say 'I don't think I wanna do that.'

sociallife

hunter_jay-122

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-123

JH: And now you can type it just put it in and it's there.

hunter_jay-124

EBW: And you have like anonymous [tries to pronounce anonymous] I guess.

hunter_jay-125

JH: Yeah with anon[ymous] you can be a total butthead. And nobody knows who you are.

hunter_jay-126

EBW: What can you remember about your education during the era? So do you think it was more... like restricted? Like what they wanted you to learn? You know, I'm saying something along those lines?

hunter_jay-127

JH: I remember, I never really thought that but I was, I was heavily into sciences and mathematics. So it's, I've never felt like somebody was trying to push political view on me.

hunter_jay-128

EBW: Interesting. It's a big difference from right now everybody is thinking that everybody has an agenda in what sense. Especially in Idaho. What sort of information were you learning in your classes? I know that you said you were more science but could you remember like history, or english, or topics?

education

hunter_jay-129

JH: You know, I was one of those unfortunate kids in high school, the coach who didn't like to teach was the one assigned to teach history and government. And he taught it so poorly I hated those subjects, like never. They could be great fascinating subjects now, well I watch or read something straight, but I disliked it so much I didn't ever take a course in college.

education

hunter_jay-130

EBW: Really?

hunter_jay-131

JH: It's true. I took a History of Religions and I'm trying to think but you know it's been a long time. I think if I were to take any other history courses. I took some English Literature. No, I don't think I ever took a history course.

hunter_jay-132

EBW: That's interesting.

hunter_jay-133

JH: So there were gaps in my education. I look back on that. If I was going to do it over again I would learn a language for one thing, probably Spanish.

hunter_jay-134

EBW: Did you guys not have a required language to learn back then?

hunter_jay-135

JH: We didn't, you know.

hunter_jay-136

EBW: Yeah, I took German for four years.

hunter_jay-137

JH: Really?

hunter_jay-138

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-139

JH: Yeah, I think I feel now that Spanish should be taught routinely through grade and high school with options to learn other things too just because of the makeup of America.

hunter_jay-140

EBW: Yeah, I, in hindsight I probably should have chosen Spanish, but as a history major and I'm especially interested in European culture I chose German. And it was fun, I loved it.

hunter_jay-141

JH: We were in Costa Rica a couple months ago and my daughter-in-law speaks pretty good Spanish, and I was just thinking, oh God I just wish. In fact I was just thinking I should go back and sign up for Spanish classes at the University. The problem is I'm 71, the chance to be living in a Spanish speaking area is practically zero.

adulthood
education

hunter_jay-142

EBW: Well you could travel I guess. I have friends that only know how to say can I please have chicken fingers in Spanish. So when they go down south, they just order chicken strips. They just don't know anything else.

hunter_jay-143

JH: I just, I just need to know how to order a beer and where's the bathroom?

hunter_jay-144

EBW: Well that's about the only thing I know in German. Wo ist das badezimmer? That's all you need. Where's the bathroom?

hunter_jay-145

EBW: That's interesting, do you think like that, do you wish that they would have had that requirement for you back then?

hunter_jay-146

JH: Yes, it's one of the big holes of my knowledges, one of the big things I wish I knew how to speak a foreign language.

hunter_jay-147

EBW: What was required in high school?

hunter_jay-148

JH: Oh my high school didn't have language offered. We had a Spanish teacher one year, but that's the only year we had a Spanish teacher. and there was something like 17 people in my graduating class.

education

hunter_jay-149

EBW: 17 people?

hunter_jay-150

JH: 17

hunter_jay-151

EBW: I had five hundred!

hunter_jay-152

JH: Yeah, so I mean school was so small. We had good teachers because we were close to the university and we had a lot of people who finished teaching degrees. And if there was a job open they would come and teach. But, we just didn't have any diversity. The entire time I was at school 16 years or one year we had a Spanish teacher so.

hunter_jay-153

EBW: Interesting, yeah we had French, Spanish, and German, and I know of other schools that have Chinese Mandarin. I bet there's Italian out there, but yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to add by the '60s or anything like that? I'm interested in literally everything, I just had some questions I was required to ask as well.

hunter_jay-154

JH: Any questions you have?

hunter_jay-155

EBW: This is a free for all moment.

hunter_jay-156

JH: Well those were my formative years, all those memories of the '60s. They were a lot of fun, with college.

childhood

hunter_jay-157

EBW: What made you choose U of I?

hunter_jay-158

JH: I'm a third generation U of I. My son in the library is 4th generation.

family
education

hunter_jay-159

EBW: That's cool.

hunter_jay-160

JH: My younger son ran off to New York University instead. So, although he did get an honorary PhD from University of Idaho a couple years ago.

family

hunter_jay-161

EBW: That's cool, so just kind of like it just made sense.

hunter_jay-162

JH: Yeah.

hunter_jay-163

EBW: Same here.

hunter_jay-164

JH: Do you have a long history of family going to the U of I?

hunter_jay-165

EBW: My step mom and my sisters went here. And in Washington, because I went to high school in Washington, and I felt like I didn't wanna follow the path that everybody else was there. AKA going to WSU or Eastern Washington University, and Idaho just, it felt like home down here.

hunter_jay-166

JH: So my father was a sophomore I think when Pearl Harbor was attacked. So he was called up with his guard unit and spent three years in the Pacific of the Philippines in New Guinea. And came home probably early 1944 and he had enough time and didn't have to go back. So he married, and then they finished [college]. So a lot of college kids came back from the war at that time, then married. Finished his couples, that's what my parents did. Dad taught for a while and he didn't like it, so he went into business. So they had friends that also were in the same unit that all survived the war. Some of my early memories of the '60s were, 'cause World War II had not ended too many years ago.

family
war

hunter_jay-167

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-168

JH: They would get together and have dinner and afterwards all [and] everybody smoked, oh then they'd get together and smoke cigarettes and flick ashes onto their pants cuffs. And [they] talk about the war. Like how much fun it was about, "Oh remember when we decided not to sleep in the hammocks and the Japs strafed all our hammocks that night? And they blew up the cook tent. We were so hungry we ate dirt. Oh yeah that was fun! Remember when the pilots mistook us for Japanese on the beach and strafed us and almost got killed?'

war

hunter_jay-169

EBW: Things like that?!

hunter_jay-170

JH: Oof, yah!

hunter_jay-171

EBW: Interesting, the stories you must have heard.

hunter_jay-172

JH: They brought home a Japanese style of rifle, a bunch of coins, and a bloody flag.

hunter_jay-173

EBW: Oh my gosh.

hunter_jay-174

JH: So they uh, but also the '60s was the time of over-prejudice. You know Jim Crow laws were still. My parents were, I don't think of them as prejudiced, but we drove through Lapoiea, through the reservation. The conversation is, 'oh see that Cadillac, three or four Indian families will buy that Cadillac in their limited shacks just so they could drive a nice car.' There was that kind of subtle prejudice. There was an occasional black athlete at university, like the running back, or can't remember the name. But there were virtually no blacks. I mean I don't think I saw a black person until I was in college.

discrimination

hunter_jay-175

EBW: Really?

hunter_jay-176

JH: There was a family that lived up by Deary when I was in grade school - high school that were black. The only black people probably in Latah county. And sometimes in the spring on Sundays after church nothing to do, so take a drive in the country and see the wildflowers out sometimes say 'can we drive by Deary, you can see if the black people were out.'

diversity

hunter_jay-177

EBW: Because there's no diversity?

hunter_jay-178

JH: It wasn't like we don't like them, it's like curiosity. We had friends that were red haired like you and they went to China in the '80s when it first opened up. And they said they were mobbed by Chinese. They had never seen a red-haired person. They wanted to touch their skin, touch their hair.

hunter_jay-179

EBW: Was it segregated here or just the no diversity that it didn't really need to be?

segregation

hunter_jay-180

JH: Was it what?

hunter_jay-181

EBW: Like segregated, to like white and colored bathrooms, and sinks, and what not like that.

hunter_jay-182

JH: They were not around here.

hunter_jay-183

EBW: More South for sure.

hunter_jay-184

JH: That was all the South. So there were never segregated restrooms. But the tolerance was fairly low. Like when I started college the style was to grow your hair out. And I had long hair and facial hair. nobody had facial hair, you know after World War II and into the '60s. A friend of mine, we owned a grocery store with my uncles family, my cousin was a year older than me. He had a friend from Spokane that came down once when we were in high school late '60s and we were stocking shelves so he decided to help us. but he had a beard, a neatly trimmed beard and pretty soon we're called and my cousin's father said, 'you know I think you guys should leave because people won't come into the store with that bearded guy, they think he's a hippie.' I was working after my freshman year of college summer back in '70, working in a green warehouse of Troy just cleaning peas, and wheat, and putting it into burlap 100 pound bags, and stacking box cars. And school approached and I didn't want to get a haircut, so my hair was barely over my ear. Boss looked at me one day and said, 'Get your haircut or don't come to work tomorrow.' I mean we didn't even have any contact with public.

segregation
culture

hunter_jay-185

EBW: Really?

hunter_jay-186

JH: That's how strict intolerant things were.

hunter_jay-187

EBW: Did you ever think about like you know the Mississippi bus rides or like going down South and joining the movements or trying to like look up into...

socialmovements

hunter_jay-188

JH: That kind of happened just as I was starting college. Gosh what year that was...

hunter_jay-189

EBW: Oh like, '60? It was all like '63 I feel like to early '70s.

hunter_jay-190

JH: But it was by the time I got to college, yeah quite frankly we all think that we would do something like that. Very few of us would have had the courage to do that, I mean that was... we would all like to think we're wonderful people and we would have joined in the bus ride with the buses, but most of us wouldn't. I don't know what would have happened.

hunter_jay-191

EBW: Yeah.

hunter_jay-192

JH: Yeah like what would happen if I was on a battlefield, would I be one of those people that whimpered and wet my pants? Or would I actually fight and advance?

socialmovements

hunter_jay-193

EBW: Yeah, fight or flight response.

hunter_jay-194

JH: You don't know until you're in the situation, so the opportunity never came up here. Never thought about it, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I'm brave enough. It took a lot of courage to ride those buses.

socialmovements

hunter_jay-195

EBW: It did, it wasn't... it wasn't just part of... because my curiosity into it was did people like join just because everybody else was doing it 'cause it was like... I don't wanna say like a trend, but because like you know they seem like the cool thing to do

hunter_jay-196

JH: Well yeah, those people who rode the buses were for sure.

hunter_jay-197

EBW: Well yeah, those for sure. But like I'm talking like SNCC and other groups like that, like college students were leaving to go down and I was wondering, you know like was it more of a trend 'cause like oh John's doing it seems cool I'll do it or were they really believing in it?

hunter_jay-198

JH: Yeah, I don't know.

hunter_jay-199

EBW: I don't know either.

hunter_jay-200

EBW: That's why I like history though, I love the cultural side of history. So yeah, alright well that is all I have if that's good with you?

hunter_jay-201

JH: Ah, I'm fine.

hunter_jay-202

EBW: Okay, perfect, let me pause.

hunter_jay-203

hunter_jay-204

This interview was conducted at University of Idaho in the Administration Building. Jay Hunter is a University of Idaho graduate, who grew up in Troy, Idaho and recently retired from being an EMT. Topics discussed were culture and social movements of the 1960s' as well as hometowns. Attendance of University of Idaho was discussed, along with personal family details of the interviewee.

Mcinturff_lenelle

mcinturff_lenelle-1

Isabella Taylor: Okay, my name is Isabella Taylor. The date is Friday, September 23rd, 2022. I'm here in the College of Ed interviewing LeNelle McInturff for my History 325 oral history project about the 1960s in Moscow, Idaho. Let's get started. So my first question is how would you have described yourself in the 60s? What would you have characterized your values at the time as?

0:00:00
Values

mcinturff_lenelle-2

LeNelle McInturff: I was born in Gritman Hospital here in Moscow and raised on a farm between Moscow and Genesee, and then I graduated from Moscow High School in 1965. And I was gifted intelligently, but I think I was really naive otherwise. Clueless about a lot of things, about the larger world. I was a shy and quiet person. I watched other people do things rather than doing them myself, and I did go away for college after graduation. And that changed a lot of things for me. And I had to rely on myself and learn a lot of things.

Family

mcinturff_lenelle-3

We were a farm family, so our values were hard work, and honesty, and doing what you can for other people, and helping build a community that way. Just being responsible and not hurting other people, not stealing from other people. Just basic values as far as I was concerned.

Values

mcinturff_lenelle-4

IT*: Awesome. So, thinking back, what music or artists did you listen to in the 60s? And do you think music was more about, like, kind of the more casual aspects of enjoying it or more about social change? Because like, more recently we talk about looking back at that era in music, how songs were speaking to, kind of the like, the social change of the era. So what was your experience with music growing up?

Music
Culture

mcinturff_lenelle-5

LM*: Right. And I think both things were there, it was just what you cared about, what interested you more. I was rock and roll popular music. Elvis, of course. Ricky Nelson, Roy Orbison, Connie Francis. I liked tragedy songs. Like Patches and Ebony Eyes and and all those. I had a whole album full of those songs. And I like those.

Music

mcinturff_lenelle-6

But there was also, later on, the, the message songs as we call them. In The Ghetto by Elvis was his first really, real message song. But Blowing In The Wind and If I Had a Hammer and those kind of things too.

Music
Socialmovements

mcinturff_lenelle-7

But I was... And then of course we had all the dance, twist, and the mashed potatoes, and all those things. But i was more the social ones and the tragedies. More serious songs I guess you call it. I was not a party person. I mean, I liked It's My Party and I'll Cry If I Want To, but...

Music

mcinturff_lenelle-8

IT*: Who doesn't?

mcinturff_lenelle-9

LM*: Right, right, yeah. Good thing we're just... But I was more, and then later in the 60s I turn more to country music. My sister got me started on that. She gave me a country album for my birthday when I was 15 and I thought, "What's this?" (laughter) But it was Buck Owens and after a while I was singing his songs too. But... So... It was... And I think, you know, different groups migrated to different, different attitudes.

Music

mcinturff_lenelle-10

IT*: Absolutely, yeah.

mcinturff_lenelle-11

LM*: Yeah, and I was more a serious type person, not the party type.

mcinturff_lenelle-12

IT*: Yeah, I can definitely relate to that one.

mcinturff_lenelle-13

LM*: Yeah, I think that's probably all I need to say about that.

mcinturff_lenelle-14

IT*: Alright, so other than music, what other memorable,, like films or books or, kind of, pop culture accoutrements, did you really like and connect with at the time? And were there any that were, like, fundamental... like fundamentally changed, kind of, your perspective on anything?

Culture

mcinturff_lenelle-15

LM*: I saw Gone With The Wind the first time, and that was... the love story was what impressed me. I was not tuned into the slavery issues and, and those kinds of things. But... And then I like things like Psycho and Hush Hush Sweet Charlotte and Whatever Happened To Baby Jane. Kind of more horror type films.

0:05:00
Culture
Movies

mcinturff_lenelle-16

IT*: Nice.

mcinturff_lenelle-17

LM*: Rather than Beach Party Bingo and all those, those things that a lot of... I had a friend that really liked those shows, so we go to that sometimes, but I gravitated more to this, more gorey ones or more serious ones.

mcinturff_lenelle-18

I remember reading the book Ramona when I was in junior high, and, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's in the southwest, and she... there was racial... I mean she was in love with this guy that, they were different classes. One was a I think, Mexican, and one was mixed race and stuff, and so they couldn't, they just couldn't be together. And so that affected me, I thought that was not right. And I remember reading Up From Slavery by Booker T. Washington in junior high, I think it was too. And, and that kind of... So I've always kind of had the, the slant towards, "We need to be equal," and racial equality, and, and equal opportunity for other people.

Culture
Books

mcinturff_lenelle-19

And, and I remember my mom had an aunt who had gone to, Portland, I think and she had seen a mixed race couple walking down the street and she was saying how it just made her sick to see that, and I thought, "What could be wrong with two people walking down the street together?" So I was not tuned into prejudice that way.

Culture
Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-20

I remember my mother saying, I mean her parents family settled in the 1870s and 1880s out in that area, and so at that time Native Americans were still going by, you know going to the camus fields and those kind of things, and so her predjudices, if she had them, would be more fear of Native Americans rather than black people, because we didn't have black people here. But, um, but my family I think was more live and let live and everybody is, is okay. They weren't prejudiced about other people, so... But I also enjoyed West Side Story and The Graduate and, and laughing. We loved laughing on TV. That was when I was in California. It was a whole different world down there.

Culture
Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-21

IT*: Oh I bet, yeah. So, what do you remember about a your education in the 60s? And, kind of, what sort of things you learned about in your classes? Or maybe things you didn't learn about in your classes that stood out to you?

Education

mcinturff_lenelle-22

LM*: Yeah. I, I took typing and shorthand and then I took languages. I liked languages, so I took French and Spanish. And so I pretty much avoided, we always had to take english and science and math, but I pretty much managed to avoid history. So I had U.S. history, and then we had government and civics when we were seniors, and sociology. But, um, so history I, I didn't really... I mean it was dates and battles and, you know, the presidents and all that kind of thing, but it wasn't engaging for me, at all, that way. Sociology was more interesting 'cause we talked about mental illness and psychology a little bit, and those kind of things, which interested me. And I remember in government I was shocked when our teacher told us that there had been a KKK chapter in Moscow, Idaho, back in the day. And I thought, "Why in the world would they be in Moscow?" 'Cause as far as I was concerned that was all black and white and we didn't have blacks here in Moscow. So what were they doing? So, but I I really didn't learn a lot of history in high school. And in college we had an instructor who read from his notes and didn't do anything out of blackboard and go into any side stories or anything like that to make it come alive, so I, I really didn't learn a lot of history. So I've been reading historical fiction and historical nonfiction and catching up on that.

Education

mcinturff_lenelle-23

IT*: That's wonderful. You mentioned that, uh, in like your sociology class, the discussion of mental illness, like piqued your interest. Like, ho- how would you, kind of, compare the conversations that were had back in the 60s with, kind of, the conversation about mental health nowadays? Like what was the conversation like I guess?

0:10:00
Mentalhealth

mcinturff_lenelle-24

LM*: Right... (hesitant)

mcinturff_lenelle-25

IT*: In as far as you're comfortable speaking on.

mcinturff_lenelle-26

LM*: Right. We, we had an opportunity school for kids that were developmentally disabled, whatever we called it, handicap then, or crippled, or whatever it was. I remember, there was a boy in my class who, I don't know what it was, he couldn't talk. Somebody said he'd swallowed his tongue or something. And so he would go to the opportunity school mornings and then he would come into a class in the afternoons. And I remember in 5th grade then he would just put his head down on the desk and sleep most of the afternoon. I was not very tolerant really of, of disabled people. I hate to admit it, but I wasn't.

Diability

mcinturff_lenelle-27

My dad had a, not a good childhood. He had a dysfunctional family. His parents split up and his sister, I think, was abused and quit talking after her mother left the household. And was... And eventually they decided to put her in the, at the Saint Mary School they had a, a (uninteligable) Academy, and so she went to school there, and then later she was in Orofino at the home there, she had TB I think also. And so she and my dad were not close at all. And I remember, probably when I was in junior high, something like that, she did marry somebody and had a baby, and they didn't have anything, so we were gathering up a few things to send to them. I sent them some of my doll blankets for baby blankets and things. (LeNelle gets choked up) But my dad's comment was she should never have had a baby. That people like that should not have children. And it was not that she wasn't intelligent enough, but her childhood traumas had just destroyed her. And so that was sad.

Mentalhealth
Family

mcinturff_lenelle-28

Somehow I was always drawn to psychology, and wanted to be a psychiatrist, until I learned you had to go to medical school. And I faint when I see blood, so I thought, "Well that's not going to work." But I was interested in that, and then my grandmother when I was a senior in high school, had a series of strokes and then she had, I don't think it was Alzheimer's, we didn't know about Alzheimer's at that time, but she had some hallucinations and she didn't recognize us and that kind of thing, so that interested me. I didn't... I wasn't... I didn't want to take care of her, or help her, or anything like that but, but it interested me what was going on and I wanted to try to know more about that.

mcinturff_lenelle-29

But in those days, yeah, a lot of people were just put away in institutions rather than trying to integrate them into the rest of the society, and that's just the way it was at that time. And luckily we've made some progress in that area, but yeah, it was, it was hard. We, we learn in sociology, we learned about senile psychosis. I remembered that term. And, and different ways.

mcinturff_lenelle-30

And in junior high we had to give a little talk in our science class and so my talk, we had an old medical type book at home, I don't know how reliable it is now, but in there, there was a chapter on mental intelligence, you know, the different ratings, morons, imbeciles, and idiots, and that kind of thing, and what the IQ equivalents were. And that was my talk, and the class was really interested in that because we could call other people idiots or morons or imbeciles, you know it was, it was that kind of thing. So it was, it was not a serious study of it at all, but... And we called each other names, and made jokes, and yeah...

mcinturff_lenelle-31

IT*: As high schoolers tend to do.

mcinturff_lenelle-32

LM*: Junior high especially is really bad for that.

mcinturff_lenelle-33

IT*: Oh yeah, definitely. Um, so, moving onto a lighter topic, not really. So what were, at the time, your thoughts on the Vietnam War? And did it change how you felt about America as a kind of global leader?

0:15:00
Vietnam

mcinturff_lenelle-34

LM*: That. Again, I was, I got married in 1966 and, so, like my focus then... I wasn't going to school anymore, I had to work to support him while he went to school, and then he was disqualified from school, so he lost the draft deferment category for being in school. But Vietnam to me, I was, I was pretty much detached from all that. I mean, it was far away, I didn't watch the news a whole lot, he was able to get into the naval reserve instead of being drafted into the full Navy, so he only had to serve, like for a couple of years, I think. He had 14 months of active duty and he never saw the coast of Vietnam at that time.

Vietnam

mcinturff_lenelle-35

His younger brother was two years younger. He was drafted and he did go to Vietnam for a year. He died a few years ago now, and had had cancer. Before that I was visiting him and we talked a little bit about it but, I don't remember writing him letters when he was in Vietnam. And he remembered he was in trouble because he did not write letters home to his wife and mom, and so they were after him for not staying in touch with his family. But- and then I remember when he came back early in 1970, and a friend of his mothers was wanting to talk to him about how he felt about Vietman, whether we should be there or we shouldn't be there, and all that kind of thing, and- but I never talked to him about that either. I remember we went to see the movie Mash, and I hated the movie because I thought it was making fun of Vietnam, and I didn't think that was something to laugh about.

Vietnam

mcinturff_lenelle-36

And I worked with a guy at one of my jobs, my first job at Caltech, was in the industrial relations center, where we were focused on, you know, industrial relations. But he had worked there as a library aid and then he had gone to Vietnam, and I was impressed because when he came back from the Navy, and he had been replaced in his job at the center, but the director there found another job for him. And I thought that was positive because a lot of people came back and they couldn't find jobs, and they didn't they couldn't get back into regular life. So I was impressed with the director there that that he did take care of someone who came back. But I was not- I was detached from the whole thing. It didn't affect me that much. My husband had a cousin from the San Francisco area who had at least two tours in Vietnam. He was a marine and he had been injured in the war, and I know both of them have had had flashbacks and stuff all the rest of their lives. More or less. You know, part of the time they could kind of forget about it, but not- But I was not- I didn't think that much about the right or wrong of it. And I was not- I was just not really involved with that, I didn't do any demonstrating or anything like that. I know they were going on, that was going on a lot. But I was somehow just detached.

Vietnam

mcinturff_lenelle-37

IT*: Do you remember having like, particularly strong feelings about any of it? Like any concern or anything like that? Or was it just like something that didn't really cross your mind much?

mcinturff_lenelle-38

LM*: The reality of it just didn't sink in I think. It was there, and you see the movies on the, on the screen, and it's horrible, but then it's over and over and over and you get kind of numb to it after a while, and and nobody that I knew personally died over there. My brother-in-law came back, and he had struggled with smoking and drinking before he went and afterwards it was worse of course, but, um, I, I did though, I did it did impress me when the Vietnam veteran, who happened to be black besides, came back and, and the boss, the director, found a higher level job for him when he came back and promoted him. I thought that was a decent thing to do. But, I don't remember thinking about the right or wrong of the whole deal. I just wasn't that involved, so...

Vietnam

mcinturff_lenelle-39

IT*: So, we've touched on this a little bit, but what, like, what social movements at the time were you aware of, and, um, like how tuned into those things were you, and what was, um, for yourself, and also for, like, your community, your family and friends, what was the general, like, attitude towards those movements? Thoughts on leaders in those movements?

0:20:00
Socialmovements

mcinturff_lenelle-40

LM*: Well, I mean we could look here- I had, there was a Chinese family in Moscow who had a restaurant. One of the girls who was in my class, and she ended up being one of my very best friends. And we're still in touch and all that. She was the only Chinese. There was a black family, obviously black. I mean, later on, after I look back, I thought there were a lot of people there who had mixed blood, but, but we didn't talk about it. That didn't register a lot. But we had one black family. There was a boy a year ahead of me in school and a couple of girls that worked at the Kenworthy theater as ushers and concession stands people. And we had- there was a Native American boy in my class who is a good friend of mine back in grade school, and it irritated me 'cause one of the kids that were supposed to be one of his best friends would tease him or joke with him about walking like an Indian, and being pigeon toed like an Indian, and sneaking up on people, like an Indian could sneak up on you or something. And I just thought that's not something you say to a friend of yours. But and then, of course, we watched Cowboys and Indians on Saturday mornings on TV. But somehow, um, I mean, there where just so few that there wasn't any need to see any prejudice. The Chinese family was all very intelligent, so I didn't get exposed to prejudice that way. I know there were demonstrations later on, up on campus here, with the war and everything.

Socialmovements
Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-41

When I left Moscow I went to Pepperdine College, which was in LA at that time, and that was the summer of '65, which was the summer of the Watch Riots down there, so we became aware of that because Pepperdine was not that far away from Watts, and they kept in touch with us as it came time for me to go down there. They were in August and I was supposed to go to school in August. And they kept telling us, "The campus is open, we'll be open and will let you know if it's not going to be," and when I got there- and of course our our dorm was integrated at that point, there were black girls and there were white girls on the same floors, and classes of course were all integrated, but it was a different experience for me to have that many people and then knowing the neighborhood around Pepperdine was becoming more integrated, there, it was becoming more black, and so we were warned as white girls not to walk, not to leave campus alone, not to walk around, even at the broad daylight stuff, we were supposed to go alone from campus grounds. Which, I mean, I just thought everybody- people and people, so I wasn't afraid, but I never participated in those kind of activities. In demonstrations or anything. But I always felt that we had a lot of social wrongs that needed to be fixed and they needed to be equal opportunity and, and treating other people like other people.

Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-42

And I don't, I know in the 1960 election between Nixon and Kennedy we were we put up a board, a display in the hal,l you know, for the election and stuff, and it seemed like most of the class was in favor of Nixon, and there was one other girl and I that was favor of Kennedy, and so we thought he should have some space out there on the board too. Of course, I didn't say anything 'cause I was shy and quiet, but the other gal was more talkative, and so she did do something that way.

0:25:00
Politics

mcinturff_lenelle-43

But- And I remember my Chinese friend, back then her grandparents were still in China, and she was talking about they were trying to get them out of China. And I thought, "Well what's the big deal? Just bring him over here." But, of course, that wasn't possible in those days. And I, I didn't know that. I wasn't that aware of that yet either. Yeah, I don't know, does that answer your question?

Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-44

IT*: Yeah it does, it does. So... Again, this is a little bit redundant, 'cause we've been talking about this the whole time, but were there any, like, issues or anything that you did have any, like, strong convictions about? Even if you didn't necessarily protest or, like, take public action? Like, were there things that you had strong thoughts and feelings on?

mcinturff_lenelle-45

LM*: I did. I did have strong feelings about segregation. I thought it was wrong. I worked at Caltech to- the replacement for the guy who had come back from Vietnam, you know, was also black. He was an art student at Cal State Los Angeles I think it was, and I remember- well the guy that came back from Vietnam then, there were group of us in the office that would go to lunch together, and I never thought about it at the time, but I think there's one time we went to a restaurant- he was the only black guy and he had three or four white- young white women with him, and it seemed like there was a time at a restaurant that there was a question whether they could serve us or not. If there was room, and we could look around and see that there was plenty of room in there, and so I, I didn't think too much of it at the time, but then afterwards I thought, "What was that about?"

Vietnam
Racism

mcinturff_lenelle-46

And then there was a party that- a work party related, a holiday gathering, out in La Cañada I think it was. Anyway, there were three of us that wanted to go together, the black guy that worked in the library, and then another gal, and I were gonna drive together. Well, she had a little MG, which really helped two people, and he had a car but it didn't have reverse at that time, so he didn't wanna drive. I had a a Chevy that was a four speed on the floor that I wasn't comfortable driving on hills with, so I asked Ron if he would drive, so he did, but then we started going up on the hills and he was not real comfortable with it either, and so he pulled over he said he probably shouldn't drive. And so the other gal did drive, but I thought afterwards, I wondered too if it was partly there was this black man with two white women in a car. And maybe the visual was not what it should have been, and could have caused problems otherwise. So I was aware of those kind of things, and I thought they were very wrong, but I, I didn't demonstrate or anything. I just tryed to treat the people I knew as people, and I- we're all different. I mean some white people I like, some white people I don't. And the same for black people. There were some I didn't care for, but some that I did. And- But segregation and, and inequality. Seeing they couldn't live in a lot of areas.

Racism
Segregation

mcinturff_lenelle-47

When we bought our first house up to the hills, the house next door was rented out, and at one point a black family moved in there, and I think some of the rest of the neighborhood did not like that at all. And then, about that time that we were selling our house, so there was concern that we would sell it to a black family. And those things just really bothered me. It wasn't fair.

Segregation

mcinturff_lenelle-48

0:30:00

Bielenberg_len

bielenberg_len-1

Tyler Leister: This is Tyler Leister, I'm sitting down with Len Bielenberg and we are going to discuss some questions about the 1960s. So I guess my first question would be what were your early 20s like do you remember your biggest concerns or goals at the time?

bielenberg_len-2

Len Bielenberg: In my early 20s? OK when I got out of the service in 1946, I was in my early twenties then.

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-3

TL: So in your early 20s you were in the military and you just got out of school?

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-4

LB: No, actually I went into the service when I was 17 years old, and one of the reasons I did is that I volunteered. I didn't want to go into the army, I had problems with surgery when I was a young child. I think I had a touch of polio, and I didn't want to go into the army and have to march, and this was getting toward the end of the war and there was a lot of recruiting going on and you didn't have too much of an excuse for not going into the service.

Adulthood
War

bielenberg_len-5

LB: So, I volunteered and I went into the Navy and I was in there for a little while, and then I retired from the Navy. In the summer of 1946, I matriculated at the University of Idaho and I signed up for a business law degree. And after four years I acquired a business law degree and then after two more years I acquired a law degree, which at that time was a doctor's degree. And what else would you like to know at this time?

Adulthood
War
Education

bielenberg_len-6

TL: So beyond graduating what other goals did you have at the time, in your profession like what sort of jobs were you looking for?

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-7

LB: Well, my goal at the time was number one, get a job because I grew up as a poor person. But probably the best meal and the best I ever ate in my life was when I was in the military because my folks were extremely poor and I was born, you know, before the depression and I went through the depression and so mostly everything was up for me. I mean being in the service, I did not get hurt, I did not get captured, I came out it was really a blessing.

Adulthood
War

bielenberg_len-8

LB: The fact that I was there helped me to get into school because otherwise I probably would have not been able to pay my way. As a matter of fact, then my help ran out, my military help ran out, and in my last years I had actually three jobs, I had a job at Hay's Cafe for my meal, and I worked at the liquor store on weekends. Oh yes, then I worked part time at the law school at the library. But I made it through and what else would you like to know at this time?

Education
Adulthood

bielenberg_len-9

TL: What do you think was the best aspect of the 1960s?

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-10

LB: For me?

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-11

TL: Yeah.

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-12

LB: The fact that everything was up for me. I was a poor boy, I finally got my education upon graduation from law school and I was offered a position as an assistant attorney general under Robert Smylie. That was a nice paying job, it was an income for the first time in my life other than the military, that is steady income.

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-13

LB: After spending 2 1/2 years in the attorney general's office, then I came to Moscow at the invitation of one of the local attorneys and joined the law firm. And it became Felton and Bielenberg, and the person who invited me to join him was Tom Felton. So up to that point it was very good and they just kept on getting better.

Adulthood

bielenberg_len-14

TL: Is there anything that you wish American society still possessed that existed in the 1960s that doesn't exist today?

Culture

bielenberg_len-15

LB: Could you give me an example?

Culture

bielenberg_len-16

TL: Yeah, like perhaps family life. Do you think family life was a little bit closer in the 1960s versus something like today? Where you could argue that families today aren't as close knit as they were back then?

Culture
Family

bielenberg_len-17

LB: Well I think that is true, and one of the reasons it's true is that many females did not work outside the home in those days. A mother was a person who stayed home with the children, that is assuming they had children, and it didn't make any difference whether it was one or a half a dozen. That's where she stayed and the man was the person that was out making a living.

Culture
Family
Gender

bielenberg_len-18

LB: And then of course as time went on, then ladies and women went into working outside the home and putting money in the coffers just like the husband did, so that was certainly changed. And of course, a lot of women today, as you well know, do not work continuously twenty-four hours in the home. A lot of them nowadays of course are doing that in one respect, in that they're working out of their home on the computer or that type of thing.

Culture
Family
Gender

bielenberg_len-19

TL: My other question is what music or artists were you listening to during the 1960s?

Music

bielenberg_len-20

LB: Oh probably Johnny Cash.

Music

bielenberg_len-21

TL: Did you listen to Hank Williams?

Music

bielenberg_len-22

LB: Oh yeah, oh absolutely. Any of those, in fact Roy Rogers. I was a cowboy music fan, in fact I still am. Although I did like that Irish singer, I can't think of his name but I like Irish songs too. Even though I'm German, I like Irish songs.

Music

bielenberg_len-23

TL: Do you think music was primarily about partying or about social change during the 1960s?

Music
Socialmovements

bielenberg_len-24

LB: Well, I don't think it had too much to do about social change, so it must have been about partying. If I have a choice.

Music
Socialmovements

bielenberg_len-25

TL: Were there any famous figures, political or otherwise, that stood out to you during the 1960s? And why did they stand out to you?

News

bielenberg_len-26

LB: I can't think of any off hand, can you mention a few that were out there doing things at the time?

News

bielenberg_len-27

TL: Yeah, so it doesn't have to be political, it could be cultural figures too that were just very present in the 1960s that stood out to you?

News

bielenberg_len-28

LB: Can't think of anyone special, I mean things were better after the war of course. I think everyone was doing quite well, but the politics weren't as they are today. I think the political parties were generally trying to tell you what they had accomplished and what they wished to accomplish rather than telling what the other party didn't accomplish. I think the political parties were more friendly back in those days, I mean they each had their problem they just didn't accuse each other of fraud or bad politics.

News
Values

bielenberg_len-29

TL: Do you have a favorite president during the 1960s?

News

bielenberg_len-30

LB: Well I'm not sure who was then? Was Ronald Reagan then?

News

bielenberg_len-31

TL: No, so in the 60's we have Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Nixon, in the early seventies. Out of those three who would you say you preferred?

News

bielenberg_len-32

LB: Well my brother liked Nixon, now I know he got kicked out which today would be a minor offense, a minor offense. I can't believe that he was kicked out and the current ones aren't, I mean there's just no way to measure these two. Anyway, I thought he was a decent president, yeah he screwed up and he didn't do the right thing but that wasn't all that terrible I didn't think. That would just be a minor offense these days.

News
Change

bielenberg_len-33

TL: Exactly yeah, it'd be a minor scandal.

News

bielenberg_len-34

LB: Yeah, not enough to kick him out.

News

bielenberg_len-35

TL: Flew away on a helicopter and what not.

News

bielenberg_len-36

TL: What social movements were you aware of, at the time, when you were living in the 1960s?

Socialmovements

bielenberg_len-37

LB: I can't think of any just off hand, I must not have been involved in any.

Socialmovements

bielenberg_len-38

TL: How did Moscow react in the 1960s? Were there any demonstrations for Civil Rights in Moscow that you remember?

Civilrights

bielenberg_len-39

LB: No, people didn't do that back in those days. Not that I remember. There weren't any gatherings on Main Street, or marching up and down, and going to the park or whatever. People were decent people, they really were. Not that all the people today are or aren't, but they were a more friendly group. They had their differences of course, nevertheless they were more friendly, they got along better.

Civilrights

bielenberg_len-40

TL: So, what were your thoughts on the Vietnam War?

Vietnam

bielenberg_len-41

LB: Well obviously I'm no expert on that, but I do think we were in a war that we shouldn't have been in. I respect the fellows and the people that were involved, they did what they were ordered to do but unfortunately, I don't think we should have been involved.

Vietnam

bielenberg_len-42

TL: I know that you sir are a veteran, do you think the Vietnam War changed at all how you felt about America as a global leader?

Vietnam

bielenberg_len-43

LB: No, in that respect I just had my own personal opinion. I think a lot of people felt that way, that we just should not have been involved. We shouldn't have been in either one of those over there, now of course I'm talking as a layman, I don't know all the background. I don't know really why we were really involved in the first place, I have a general idea but in so many of those situations you don't know all the details so you make decisions from what is pumped out to you from the media.

Vietnam

bielenberg_len-44

TL: My next question is, did you ever witness specific acts of discrimination against people for their race, gender, or sexual orientation? Because typically when someone thinks about the 1960s, you automatically think of the Civil Rights movement. You kind of paint a picture in your head, did you ever personally witness any acts of discrimination during the 1960s?

Discrimination

bielenberg_len-45

LB: No I did not, no.

Discrimination

bielenberg_len-46

TL: My next question is do you think social life in Moscow was shaped by racial attitudes at all?

Sociallife
Discrimination

bielenberg_len-47

LB: No I do not. People in Moscow got along nicely with each other, different religions, different politics, but they got along well, I think. We didn't have any fights to speak of about religion, sometimes at the bar they had fights, but it wasn't about religion.

Sociallife
Discrimination

bielenberg_len-48

TL: I know that there is a pretty large Native American presence here in the Palouse area, were there any racial attitudes towards native people at all?

Sociallife
Diversity

bielenberg_len-49

LB: Native people? Like Indians and so forth?

Sociallife
Diversity

bielenberg_len-50

TL: Yeah

Sociallife
Diversity

bielenberg_len-51

LB: Of course we don't have many Indians in Latah county, down in Nez Perce county they do. I don't remember any discrimination against those people, of course you always have some oddballs out there who are looking for some way to sour themselves on somebody because it seems to be the way they live. But people in general, certainly no, Latah county people invited anybody and everybody .

Sociallife
Diversity

bielenberg_len-52

TL: What has changed the most here in Moscow since the 1960s?

Change

bielenberg_len-53

LB: Politics or what?

Change

bielenberg_len-54

TL: Just in any aspect, culturally, politically, the size of the town.

Change

bielenberg_len-55

LB: The size of the town obviously, I don't know the figures but I would say that Moscow is at least three times as large as it was in 1960. The politics have changed a little bit, this used to be a Republican county, and now it's mixed but probably leaning a little bit toward Democrats. But otherwise, I can't think of any change. I don't think the people of Latah County discriminated against black people, or Indians, or Jewish, or Chinese, you name it.

Change
Discrimination

bielenberg_len-56

LB: We used to have a Chinese village out here south of town and that was a business that a lot of people went out there because they liked Chinese food. And as a matter of fact, the people that owned it were Chinese and I know of the fellow that owned the place, he had a lot of friends and they would just go out there and, well anyway, they would play games of some kind or the other and they would just get together and be very friendly. So, I think the people of Latah County were very generous in their attitude.

Diversity

bielenberg_len-57

TL: My last and final question is, what big cultural changes did you see between the 1960s and the 1970s?

Culture
Change

bielenberg_len-58

LB: Well I might have to think about that for a bit. Now cultural, would more women going to work, would that be one?

Culture
Change
Gender

bielenberg_len-59

TL: Yeah, yeah.

Culture
Change
Gender

bielenberg_len-60

LB: Definitely, mothers, wives, and just women in general, were spending lots more time out in the community doing various jobs. And of course as we are right now, a lot of these folks are spending time from their home on the Internet working and some of these ladies may have a family but they're doing two things; they're working and they're also taking care of their family because there's home. Which is kind of double duty and I don't know how they handle it but they do it, they do it.

Culture
Change
Gender

bielenberg_len-61

LB: I think people are retiring earlier than they used to, I can think of a few individuals who after 20 years that's it. And they spend the rest of the time living and enjoying life without working, without going to the store or the shop every morning. So in that respect, you know people, it seemed like they used to work until their early 70s and now I don't think all that many people are working until they're in their late 60s. Like I mentioned I know several people who put in 20 years, and that's it and they enjoy life. They might even take up a second type of job or something they really enjoyed better than the type of work they did before they retired.

Culture
Change
Adulthood

bielenberg_len-62

TL: Awesome, sweet. Well thank you so much for sitting down and answering some questions. I really appreciate your time sir.

Culture
Change
Adulthood

Fishburn_earl

fishburn_earl-1

Faith Fishburn: Oral consent, is saying that I, Faith Fishburn, am a student taught by Dr. Rebecca. Scofield, an associate professor in the history department at the University of Idaho. And it informs you of the conditions of participation. Participation is voluntary. You may withdraw from the project or end the interview at any time.

fishburn_earl-2

FF: The interview will last up to 60 minutes. The interview will be recorded and transcribed. A copy of that transcription will be made available to you. The recording of the interview may contain material to which you hold copyright. You may transfer a copyright of this material to the regents of the University.

fishburn_earl-3

FF: Transcriptions will be made available to my entire history class for research purposes. They will then be preserved by special collections and archives. The University of Idaho students, faculty and staff, as well as any researchers visiting special collections in the archive may use the interview for research, education, promotional, or other purposes deemed appropriate.

fishburn_earl-4

FF: The University of Idaho Library will preserve the interview in transcript. The interview will be made publicly accessible through the University of Idaho library for scholarly and historical purposes, including potentially through its website. Do you agree to the consent form and its statements?

fishburn_earl-5

Earl Fishburn: Yes, I do.

fishburn_earl-6

FF: Okay. Awesome. Now I'm gonna get into sort of my introductory little piece. I am Faith Fishburn currently in Moscow, Idaho on September 23rd at 6:33 PM. I am being joined by my grandfather Earl Fishburn. Who's currently in Heppner Oregon, over the phone. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview with me.

fishburn_earl-7

FF: Can you tell me a little bit about where you were born and raised?

childhood

fishburn_earl-8

EF: Yes. I think I can tell you that I was born. I was born in Pocatello, Idaho on September 7th, 1937. And I grew up just outside of Pocatello on a small farm, actually more just- we had about 40 acres of pasture. And we were there until I graduated from high school. I went to grade school in Pocatello grade school. It was a one room schoolhouse, it had all first through eighth grade all together in that one room. After I graduated or after the eighth grade, I went to Pocatello high school. And I graduated from there in, I think it was 1954, or 53.Then I spent two years at Idaho state university before I transferred to Idaho for my final two years of college.

[02:03]
childhood
education

fishburn_earl-9

FF: And while you were at the University of Idaho how did you afford your college education?

education
money

fishburn_earl-10

EF: How did I afford it? Well, I guess I'd saved up enough money. It wasn't that expensive back then. I didn't take out any student loans or anything.

education
money

fishburn_earl-11

FF: Did you think it was necessary to have a college degree to get a good job?

education
future
adulthood

fishburn_earl-12

EF: Yes, that seemed like it would be necessary. I wanted to work- for the forest service was my first choice, although I would've also considered the Bureau of Land management. Or probably even park service, but I mostly, I was interested in the forestry end of things. And I figured I'd probably should have a forestry degree if I planned to make a career outta it.

future
education
adulthood

fishburn_earl-13

FF: And so after graduating, after graduating from the University of Idaho where did you go?

future

fishburn_earl-14

EF: I got a job with the forest service, in Bly, Oregon.

work

fishburn_earl-15

EF: And I was there for two years and then I was, well, back then they did have a military draft. If they weren't getting enough people signing up by then, without it, they might draft a few. And my Aunt was on the selective service board and keeps track of whose number comes up on draft. And she told me that If I made it till I was 24, I probably wouldn't be drafted. And I, that made me feel pretty good, cuz I already had a started in my career with the Forest service and I didn't really look forward to being in the military for a couple of years, but I would've turned 24 in September of 1961 and in July of 1961, I get my draft notice.

draft
miltary
adulthood

fishburn_earl-16

FF: And so did you think being drafted was at all connected to your social class?

socialclass
draft
military

fishburn_earl-17

EF: I don't think that had anything to do with it. It seemed like, most of the kids, a lot of the school kids that I graduated from high school with a lot of them weren't thinking much about a future job. And a lot of 'em did enlist into one of the military branches. So they weren't drafting that many. I don't think, oh, my brother was drafted about a year and a half before I was, so I knew it was a possibility.

socialclass
draft
military
future

fishburn_earl-18

FF: And so how long did you spend in the military?

draft
military

fishburn_earl-19

EF: Two years.

draft

fishburn_earl-20

FF: Two years?

draft

fishburn_earl-21

EF: Yeah, it was a two year draft and they, the Forest Service, agreed to hold my job for me for two years. If I, if I signed up, after my two years in the military, then they would not hold my job for me any longer.

draft
work
future

fishburn_earl-22

FF: That was really nice that they were able to hold the job for you.

draft
work
future

fishburn_earl-23

EF: Well, yes, it was, it made you feel good. The military, I was one of, probably one of the oldest enrollee in my basic training classes. And I'd had two years of ROTC in college, one year at Idaho State University and one year at University of Idaho, I think. I know I had two years of ROTC.

draft
military
education

fishburn_earl-24

EF: So that the military was really kinda pushing me towards going to Auburn and becoming an officer and going to officer training school. But I told them I agreed to serve two years. I hadn't agreed to serve any past that time and when I, my two years up, I decided that I'd go back to my forestry job.

draft
miltary
adulthood
education

fishburn_earl-25

FF: How long did you continue working for the forestry service?

work
adulthood

fishburn_earl-26

EF: I think it was about 34 years total. Well, I had, so I probably was two years before I was drafted and, and then about 32 years after I got outta the army.

draft
work
adulthood

fishburn_earl-27

FF: So talking a little bit about drafting, did that influence your thoughts on the Vietnam war at all?

Vietnam
draft

fishburn_earl-28

EF: The Vietnam war wasn't going at all. When I was in the military, they were sending most of the people that graduated from basic training most of them were going to Korea. I. I wasn't, I wasn't really looking forward to going to Korea and they didn't, they didn't send me there.

[08:32]
Vietnam
draft
Korea

fishburn_earl-29

EF: They sent me to Fort Lewis, Washington and put me in a battle group that was going over to Berlin, to, to Germany. And while we were in Germany, we, we would be primarily in, in

draft
military
coldwar

fishburn_earl-30

EF: Oh, I can't remember where we were. We kind of were in a couple places in Germany, but mostly Berlin, I guess it was Berlin was divided into four sections. One section was managed by Russia. And the, the other three sections were divided one third to Great Britain, one third to France, and one third to the United States.

draft
military
coldwar

fishburn_earl-31

EF: So, and they had, they, the wall was up, the Berlin wall was up. So the three free governments, American, France, and Britain were on one side of the wall. And the fourth part of Germany was managed by Russia.

draft
miltiary
coldwar

fishburn_earl-32

FF: So yeah, you weren't in the military during the Vietnam war. How did you feel about the Vietnam war sort of watching it unfold? Sort, you know, as a citizen of the United States?

military
Vietnam

fishburn_earl-33

EF: Well, I guess I didn't think that much about it, so I knew I wasn't going there. In fact, I was pretty happy with my forestry job. And I wasn't looking forward to going back [to the military]. When I was drafted or where they sent me anyway in the army, there was no, well, there was no women in my company. I don't know if there was any in, in my whole battle group. I know they weren't drafting women. So there might have been a few that enlisted. I don't know, but there was none in my, in any company that I was in.

Vietnam
military
gender

fishburn_earl-34

FF: How did you feel about those gender roles?

gender
military

fishburn_earl-35

EF: I, see from what I see, I, don't, I think women can certainly fill a good position in the military.

gender
military

fishburn_earl-36

FF: So going a little bit away from the military side of things and onto a slightly lighter topic. What music or artists did you remember listening to in the 1960s?

music

fishburn_earl-37

EF: Well, Elvis Presley was probably my favorite choice.

music

fishburn_earl-38

FF: What about his music? Did you like?

music

fishburn_earl-39

EF: I don't know. I just kind of like Elvis Presley, although overall I was more into country music, Johnny Cash. In fact, I met Johnny Cash when I was going to the University of Idaho.

music

fishburn_earl-40

FF: Do you remember any favorite songs that you had?

music

fishburn_earl-41

EF: Was there, what?

music

fishburn_earl-42

FF: Were there any favorite songs that you remember having?

music

fishburn_earl-43

EF: Oh, well they were probably things like Ring of Fire and. Elvis Presley Heartbreak Hotel, and Don't be Cruel and things like that.

music

fishburn_earl-44

FF: Did you ever think about the deeper meaning in the music or did you just listen to the music to be entertained?

music

fishburn_earl-45

EF: Well, I like listening to it, but I didn't plan on learning how to, I didn't, I didn't do a lot of singing or, or, or playing any instruments. And I didn't anticipate that I wanted to go that route.

music

fishburn_earl-46

FF: Were there any famous figures, either politically or celebrity wise that stood out to you during the 1960s?

news
politics
figures

fishburn_earl-47

EF: Oh, in the 1960s I think that was, I probably watched a lot of the presidential things. I think that John, John Kennedy was elected president. I think it's still in the sixties. I, he was, was kind of surprising. And then, he was assassinated and Eisenhower was popular. He was very popular in the military and, and was also popular as president, when he got the job.

news
politics
figures

fishburn_earl-48

FF: What was it like watching the presidential elections then versus watching them unfold now?

change
politics

fishburn_earl-49

EF: Well There, there didn't seem to be the animosity between the Democrats and the Republicans that there is now. I think right now politicians have forgotten how to compromise. They, they got their head made up in one direction and they, they, refused to see the other side of it. I think in order. Be very successful politically, you have to learn to compromise on some things.

change
politics

fishburn_earl-50

FF: And you felt like in the 1960s politicians were much more willing to compromise?

change
politics

fishburn_earl-51

EF: Yes.

change
politics

fishburn_earl-52

FF: You talked a little bit about John, John F. Kennedy being assassinated. Do you sort of remember where you were when you heard about hearing that?

news
politics

fishburn_earl-53

EF: I don't remember where I think I was. Let's see. That was, I believe that was about, about, about this time of year as I recall. And I could be wrong, but it seemed like it was. Late summer, early fall. And I was working for the forest service in Paisley, Oregon.

news
politics

fishburn_earl-54

FF: What was your reaction to hearing that news?

news
politics

fishburn_earl-55

EF: Well, it, it was pretty shocking. I, I. I liked Kennedy and I thought he was doing a good job. I really felt bad when that would've happened.

news
politics

fishburn_earl-56

FF: Were there any other sort of major news or historical events that you remember hearing about

news

fishburn_earl-57

EF: In the, during the sixties?

news

fishburn_earl-58

FF: Yeah, during the sixties, it's okay. If it's late fifties or early seventies too.

news

fishburn_earl-59

EF: Well, probably it was, we weren't that about when we sent somebody to the moon? I was very interested in the moon, I don't recall exactly what year it was, but it seems like it was in the late sixties or early seventies, some place there.

spacerace
news

fishburn_earl-60

FF: How did you feel about the space race? Aside from being interested in it?

spacerace
news

fishburn_earl-61

EF: I was very interested in it. I wasn't planning to be personally involved in it in any way, but I thought it was probably very important. And now it sounds like it's, they're about to do it again. And I guess, I'm all for it. I think it's doing a good job.

spacerace
news

fishburn_earl-62

FF: And were you aware of any of the sort of big social movements of the 1960s? Like the civil rights movement?

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-63

EF: I think you had to be aware of it with Martin Luther King and him and his assassin. That was, that was kind of a big blow end. Yeah. I think the civil rights movement was pretty prominent.

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-64

FF: How did you feel about watching the movement unfold?

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-65

EF: I thought it was probably about time.

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-66

FF: What was it like living in a sort of watching the civil rights movement while living in an area of the United States that was predominantly white?

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-67

EF: Yeah. It, and it, it was. I wasn't around very many of the minorities. Although we did have a few working for the forest service on summer crew and stuff, they always did a good job. I was glad to have them.

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-68

FF: Have you changed your mind on any big issues or any big values? Since the 1960s?

values
change

fishburn_earl-69

EF: I don't think I've changed any I'm probably a, a little more. I was probably pretty conservative and I'm probably becoming a little more progressive, I should guess. You'd say that I was in the fifties and sixties.

[18:20]
values
change

fishburn_earl-70

FF: And sort of as our final question here, what do you think was the best aspect of the 1960s?

socialmovements

fishburn_earl-71

EF: The best aspect of the 1960s is probably the civil rights movement.

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-72

FF: Why would you say that's the best aspect?

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-73

EF: Well, it just seems like it was something that was long overdue and, and It became very, was kind of important. Right. Then I, I have to say, I think just looking at the last couple of years, I think there's still a lot more racism still in the United States than people were thought. There was. I think it's too bad, but I think there's still a lot of it out there.

socialmovements
civilrights

fishburn_earl-74

FF: Thank you so much for your time. That was the last question. So I'm gonna go ahead and end the recording right now.

Aiken_katherine

aiken_katherine-1

Claudia Selmer: OK there we go now we are recording. Alright, well I am Claudia Sommer interviewing a Catherine Aiken- is that how you pronounce it? "Aiken?"-

aiken_katherine-2

Katherine Aiken: [nods]

aiken_katherine-3

CS: -interviewing Katherine Aiken. Before we begin, participation in this project is voluntary and you may withdraw at any time. The duration of the interview will vary up to 60 minutes. This interview will be recorded in transcribed a copy of each will be made available to you upon your request. The recording of this interview may contain material which material to which you hold copyright to. You may transfer copyright of this material to the regents of the University of Idaho then they may then be preserved by the Special Collections and archives at the library.

aiken_katherine-4

CS: The University of Idaho students, faculty, and staff, as well as researchers visiting the special collections and archives may use the interview for any research, educational, promotional, or other purposes deemed appropriate. And finally, the University of Idaho library will preserve the interview, and transcript. The interview will be made publicly accessible through the UI library for scholarly and historical purposes including potentially through its website. Do you agree to these terms?

aiken_katherine-5

KA: Yes

aiken_katherine-6

CS: Perfect. Alright, let's begin. So, when, and where were you born?

[00:01:31]
childhood

aiken_katherine-7

KA: I was born in Sunnyside, WA in September 1951.

childhood

aiken_katherine-8

CS: Alright, did you have any siblings growing up?

childhood

aiken_katherine-9

KA: I have two younger sisters and a younger brother.

childhood

aiken_katherine-10

CS: And you grew up with your parents or?

childhood
family

aiken_katherine-11

KA: Yes.

childhood
family

aiken_katherine-12

CS: Okay, perfect. So, what was the broader culture of your community like growing up?

childhood

aiken_katherine-13

KA: So, Sunnyside was a very small town at the time, I think about six thousand people. It's a farming community, pretty kind of typical small town, the way people think of small towns. Mostly white people, there certainly were Hispanics who engaged in agricultural work, but they were pretty much excluded from society. A few attended schools many of them were migrants.

childhood
diversity

aiken_katherine-14

CS: Okay, how would you describe yourself growing up during this time?

childhood

aiken_katherine-15

KA: I think I had a very typical 1950s lifestyle. I indicated that I lived with my mother and father, my father was an attorney my mother was a homemaker. We were part of that mainline religious denomination [inaudible]. We did sports and campfire, typical kinds of activities. It's very typically 1950s-ish for white, middle-class people.

childhood
family
values
diversity

aiken_katherine-16

CS: Okay, you mentioned some sports and some other activities, were there any other hobbies you were particularly interested or passionate about?

childhood

aiken_katherine-17

KA: I read a lot, I liked music.

childhood
music

aiken_katherine-18

CS: Okay, what do you remember about your education at this time?

childhood
education

aiken_katherine-19

KA: So, I mean I went to public school with the same people that- I went to public school with a lot of the same people from first grade to high school. I think it was a very traditional education. I don't recall people discussing controversial topics, rather the literature we read in the history we studied was kind of standard and straightforward. There was nothing very exceptional about the educational process.

childhood
education

aiken_katherine-20

CS: So, you mentioned earlier that you enjoyed some music what was the sort of music or other forms of media that you were consuming?

[00:04:51]
music
news
culture

aiken_katherine-21

KA: So, the big thing when I was in high school was listening to the radio, and like one of the things was that there was a program at night where people could dedicate songs to one another, and that was big topic of conversation at high school. I guess we listened to it we would now call rock'n'roll, and the radio is the main way that we did that. We also actually had records, we bought records and played them on a record player.

music
news
culture

aiken_katherine-22

CS: Was there any other books or movies that were also particularly popular or interesting to you or your friends?

culture

aiken_katherine-23

KA: We did films I can remember seeing The Graduate, for example. We went to the drive-in. -I need to pick up the baby crying in the background [inaudible]. Okay, I've got him!

culture
media
family

aiken_katherine-24

CS: Do you mind me asking who that is?

family

aiken_katherine-25

KA: [Laughs] My daughter recently had twins, Daniel and Elizabeth, and that was Daniel. He was making his presence known at this point in time.

family

aiken_katherine-26

CS: Okay [laughs]. Alright so, in terms of media, do you think that any of that sort of media that was very popular at the time reflected larger social changes going on in the United States?

media
culture
socialmovements
chnge

aiken_katherine-27

KA: Well, there's no question that rock'n'roll is a defining element of American social change and culture, it's really the first music that is generational. I mean, I think- and generation before for example, people listened to Frank Sinatra but, young people and their parents listened to that. But, rock and roll, parents had no interest in listening to it, so it was- it was young people's music that's why I think that's [inaudible]. We also- when we think of the beginning- I should of thought of this -- of the television age, I remember when we first got television there was one channel it wasn't on all day was only on certain times- sporadically.

culture
music

aiken_katherine-28

CS: Do you think that really like highlighted like- or not really highlighted, but do you think that changed the way like your family viewed the outside world in anyway [in terms of television?]

[00:07:47]
culture
family
news

aiken_katherine-29

KA: I'm not so sure it changed how we viewed the outside world, but we did watch television as a family, and since there is only - we watched it together, usually. And we watched the nightly news, it was only 15 minutes long, I can remember watching Ed Sullivan, I can remember watching Bananza. Oh and Walt Disney.

culture
family
news

aiken_katherine-30

CS: Ok, so kind of continuing on with that do you remember any particular major historical events um of around that time period?

culture
change
news

aiken_katherine-31

KA: I remember lots of them. I remember Martin Luther King's assassination; I remember Robert Kennedy's assassination. I remember the first man on the moon, that was such a -- it doesn't seem like it's so revolutionary now, but my grandmother was in her 80s at the time- she literally lost her mind after we landed on the moon. She couldn't fathom that somebody could be on the moon. She was born in the 19th, late 19th century and so she had seen so many changes with automobiles and transportation, but she just couldn't fathom that someone could actually be on the moon. I remember Woodstock. I remember- I remember that I was at the University of Idaho when Richard Nixon had forces invade Cambodia, so I guess I remembered the 1968 election quite well.

culture
change
news
music

aiken_katherine-32

CS: Well, kind of relating to that question, did these events directly impact you or your community?

news
change
culture

aiken_katherine-33

KA: Well, I mean, 1968 is an incredibly difficult year for America, and I mean everyone was certainly aware. And as I look back, the one that had the most impact obviously was Martin Luther King's death, it had a big impact on and continues to sort of be a catalyst for thinking about questions of race. Although you know, there was one negro family - one African American family in Sunnyside, so it wasn't like that was the big issue that impacted me. And as I reflect as a historian, I think if Robert Kennedy had not been assassinated American history would have been dramatically different.

news
change
culture
diversity

aiken_katherine-34

CS: Hm, okay. So, it seems like you're pretty aware of what was going on at the time, so I mean-

aiken_katherine-35

KA: Yeah, I mean- [laughs] it was pretty hard to not be aware and to notice those kinds of things!

aiken_katherine-36

CS: Yeah, so kind of going off of that that, what were the specific social and political movements that you really focused on or really heard a lot about during this time period?

socialmovements
civilrights

aiken_katherine-37

KA: Well, I think- I think about mostly all of them is that young people play a major role in every one of these movements that in a way that as a historian looking back is really quite remarkable, and so certainly the civil rights movement and lots of college students went to Mississippi and elsewhere, I mean we are certainly aware of that. The women's movement turned out to be really important to me, of course, later on and people began to notice that. Because there were Hispanics in Sunnyside Cesar Chavez's activities were very prominent in Sunnyside.

socialmovements
civilrights
gender
discrimination
diversity
change

aiken_katherine-38

KA: He visited Sunnyside several times and united farm workers, so that movement was important in Sunnyside. I think Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty had a big impact, it [Sunnyside] had one of the first head start programs because it had Hispanics in the area. I think that was important. I guess those would certainly be the ones- although not as much as it later was, but I think environmental questions were important with Earth Day and- and that. Although, in Sunnyside we seemed further removed from that. I think from some of the others.

socialmovements
civilrights
gender
discrimination
diversity
change

aiken_katherine-39

CS: Yeah, how did you feel about these movements at the time? Like were there any that you were particularly supportive of or any that you didn't really care for?

[00:13:36]
socialmovements
civilrights
gender
discrimination
diversity
change

aiken_katherine-40

KA: So- [Laughs] my family are liberal social reform type Democrats, so there were no big objections. Although my father was a World War Two veteran, and early on he was pretty supportive of the Vietnam War, as I think were most Americans because it was the patriotic thing to do. But certainly, by the time I got to the University of Idaho in 1969 people were beginning to have questions and by the time of Cambodia, then there were even bigger questions, so. Being against the war was one of the things I did, I was interested in the Woman's Movement.

socialmovements
civilrights
gender
discrimination
diversity
change
vietnam
family

aiken_katherine-41

KA: I was intellectually supportive of African American rights, but at the University of Idaho there weren't very many African Americans, besides Sunnyside so it wasn't as if well, I was in favor of civil rights- it didn't have a big direct impact on people at the University of Idaho cause there weren't very many minorities there as you might imagine- there are very many minorities now, so you can imagine in 1969 how few there were.

socialmovementse
civilrights
family

aiken_katherine-42

CS: So, you talked a little bit about how your family kind of viewed politics generally- like how your family seemed like more supporting of certain movements during this time- did you or your family have any specific feelings about the political leaders of this time period?

[00:15:07]
socialmovementse
civilrights
family

aiken_katherine-43

KA: So, I mean there certainly were conservative people in Sunnyside, it has big John Birch group and there were certainly conservatives at the University of Idaho. But, my family, as I said was pretty liberal minded and was generally in favor. My mother grew up in Washington, DC so she recalled vividly when the white swimming pools were desegregated, and kind of impact of that. She always told this story that she didn't know that chickens had and other parts because in Washington, DC, only breasts and thighs were sold where white people shopped, and all the other parts were sold where African American shopped.

socialmovements
civilrights
discrimination
diversity
change
segregation
family
values

aiken_katherine-44

KA: So, I was a part of conversations about race, but as I said, there were not African Americans in Sunnyside or at the University of Idaho. So, my family was in favor of equality, but it was not an issue that we confronted. Although, there was a significant Hispanic community in Sunnyside, and my father's law practice catered to Hispanics when a lot of other lawyers would not provide service for them. So, I was aware of that, but I was not really a part of that.

socialmovements
civilrights
discrimination
diversity
change
segregation
family
values

aiken_katherine-45

CS: Okay, alright. So, kind of relating to the general politics of the time, what were your thoughts on the Vietnam War?

vietnam
war
values

aiken_katherine-46

KA: So as I said, when I was in high school, it was generally sort of patriotic to think about it, but it soon became pretty clear to me that it was not a war that we should be involved in, and I think like a lot of young people, I believe that politicians were forcing my friends to go die in Vietnam for reasons that were not clear to me certainly, and I don't think they were very clear to them either. And it just seemed like war that was endless in a lot of ways, with no real goals or purpose as far as I was concerned.

vietnam
war
values

aiken_katherine-47

CS: Okay. Did it change the way that you viewed the United States in any way, like as a global superpower or just generally?

[00:18:19]
vietnam
change
war
culture

aiken_katherine-48

KA: Well, I guess I would say that I'm not sure it changed the United States being a superpower but, it was clear we were not winning that war, and you would think the superpower would win that war. But I think it was because we had no real purpose or motive to be there in the lot of ways, and I think one of the reflect upon it I think young people really thought they could stop the United states from being involved in the war if they objected and protested, which they did throughout a lot of the 60s and into the 70s. But in the final analysis, I'm not sure that any of those protests had any impact on when the war ended. I think politicians made those decisions in all of that effort movement real limited impact on American foreign policy.

vietnam
change
war
culture

aiken_katherine-49

CS: So, did you know anybody particularly, like especially once you started going to college, who was involved in any anti-war protests or any young men who were particularly against it?

vietnam
change
war
culture
socialmovements

aiken_katherine-50

KA: I went to several protests. When I think about it now, they were very unkind, like one of the signs I remember seeing at the University of Idaho, which was seen elsewhere as well, said: "LBJ, pull out now like your mother should have," which looking back now was a very unkind and ungracious thing to say to the president, I guess I didn't think of it then. I knew lots of people, myself who were in anti-war demonstrations. One of my husband closest friends was killed in Vietnam, Bobby Dunbar. And one of my [inaudible] friends, [inaudible,] went to Vietnam, he came back addicted to heroin, he never really was right after that.

vietnam
change
war
culture
socialmovements
draft

aiken_katherine-51

KA: Those were a couple of examples. So, most everyone knows someone who was involved in the war. And certainly, it was very common at University of Idaho when I first went, you still get a student deferment, and so men were always telling their professors I need to get this grade so I can keep my student deferment. That was a common thing. And it was while I was at the University of Idaho that the lottery went into effect, and I could remember us sitting and waiting hear the dates and the numbers to see who was going to have a low lottery number. My boyfriend at the time his number at the time was in the two-hundreds so...

vietnam
change
war
culture
socialmovements
draft

aiken_katherine-52

CS: So, this is the last question that I have. What would you say was the one of the larger social changes that you saw growing up and entering into adulthood that affected the people around you and yourself the most?

childhood
adulthood
changes
socialmovements

aiken_katherine-53

KA: Well as a historian, I think the Civil Rights Movement is perhaps certainly very impactful. But on a personal level the Women's Movement has a big impact on me, I mean I couldn't have had the kind of career I had or done the things I did without the Women's Movement. When I graduated from the University of Idaho and went to graduate school at the University of Oregon, all of the papers still listed the positions: jobs for men jobs and jobs for women.

childhood
adulthood
changes
socialmovements
gender
civilrights
culture

aiken_katherine-54

KA: And that has been a really big change. And I think the Civil Rights Movement, people- I mean seeing African Americans on television doing more things and being part of society. Like I always think when I watched pictures of early space travel for example, every person in the control room was a white man in a suit. Well, it was a lot different after that. And I think those changes have dramatically changed the way American society and culture operated.

childhood
adulthood
changes
socialmovements
gender
civilrights
culture

Mcproud_wayne

mcproud_wayne-1

Maya Birdsong: My name's Maya Birdsong and I'll be interviewing Wayne McProud in the Vandal Lounge in the Pitman Center on September 28th. So, my first question was how would you describe yourself in the 60s?

values

mcproud_wayne-2

Wayne McProud: Student.

values

mcproud_wayne-3

MB: Student.

values

mcproud_wayne-4

WM: A high school student from 1960 to 63, a university student from 63 to 67, a graduate student from 67 to about 71.

values

mcproud_wayne-5

MB: Definitely a student for the whole decade then. How would you characterize your values at this time?

values

mcproud_wayne-6

WM: Teenage-ish.

values

mcproud_wayne-7

MB: Okay.

values

mcproud_wayne-8

WM: Just a teenager.

values

mcproud_wayne-9

MB: Makes sense. What music or artists were you listening to in the 60s and how do you think music affected social change?

music

mcproud_wayne-10

WM: Henry Mancini ... was a big one. The 60s was The Beatles of course, The Stones, that kind of music.

music

mcproud_wayne-11

MB: Perfect. What was the broader culture like in your community, were there any, were you aware of any big pushes for change in your town?

sociallife

mcproud_wayne-12

WM: The 60s was the age of the anti-Vietnam War, it was the age of the civil rights movement. Moscow was pretty much insulated from it, at least the circles I ... I was an ag student so the circles I was in ... there was no political activism of any kind. The first time I hit any political activism was when I got to Montana State, they had quite a bit more political activism than they had here at Idaho.

sociallife
socialmovements

mcproud_wayne-13

MB: Awesome. OK, were there any famous figures, political or otherwise, that stood out to you during this time?

culture

mcproud_wayne-14

WM: You mean here, that came to Moscow or just ...?

culture

mcproud_wayne-15

MB: Just in general

culture

mcproud_wayne-16

WM: Just in general. ... Course there's Kennedy, he was the president and was assassinated, Johnson then became president and was basically run out of office because of Vietnam. Frank Church was the senator from Idaho who gained fame for the Church Committee. That's pretty much the political aspects of it. A couple of athletes maybe of interest, Gus Johnson who played basketball here at Idaho, later went on to become ... I think one of the recognized best basketball players of all time.

culture

mcproud_wayne-17

MB: Oh wow, I didn't know that.

culture

mcproud_wayne-18

WM: And then they had a football player, Ray McDonald, who, Gus Johnson and Ray McDonald were probably two of the best athletes that ever played at Idaho.

culture

mcproud_wayne-19

MB: Awesome. What historical events do you remember hearing about the most at this time, did they impact your own life and if so, how?

news

mcproud_wayne-20

WM: Course the assassination of Kennedy. In fact, I was, I guess this is an invitation to reminisce, I was taking a botany class up at the science building, taking a test. John McMullen was my professor, I knew John pretty well, my dad was a university prof up here so I knew a lot of the profs, and somebody came in the office and whispered in his ear, and you could see his face go white ... he didn't say anything.

news

mcproud_wayne-21

WM: I finished the test and handed it in and he called me aside and he said, 'Wayne the president's just been shot.' And then I was walking up past the art and architecture building, up near the admin building, and got word that ... Kennedy had died, so that would have been one famous memory I had. Course the other one, this is probably the most significant event of the 60s, was Neil Armstrong walking on the moon, and I would venture to guess that's going to be the most significant event of the 20th century.

news
culture

mcproud_wayne-22

MB: Do you remember where you were during the-that time?

news

mcproud_wayne-23

WM: I was in Graduate School at Bozeman ... and it was the 20th of July 1969. I remember watching television, watch Neil Armstrong step out on the moon and we walked outside, and it was twilight, and you could see the moon and you'd look up there and think 'we got a man walking up there.'

news

mcproud_wayne-24

MB: I can't imagine ever going to the moon.

news

mcproud_wayne-25

WM: So ... And of course, then going to the moon that reminds me of the honeymooners on television 'I'm going to send you to the moon', but anyway that was Jackie Gleeson, but anyway.

news
culture

mcproud_wayne-26

MB: What were your thoughts on the Vietnam War, did it change how you felt about America as a global leader?

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-27

WM: I was in the military.

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-28

MB: Oh, you were?

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-29

WM: So, I supported it... I served my two years, I was a 2-year wonder and then I got out ... and yeah, I was in the military so basically supported it.

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-30

MB: So what social movements were you aware of at the time; how did you, your parents or your community feel about them?

socialmovements

mcproud_wayne-31

WM: Like I said the 60s was mainly just being a student, growing up doing student things. Moscow, at least the circle that I operated in and the circle my parents operated in, was not politically active. So ... outside of seeing news events like disruption here there ... everywhere. The only time I ran into difficulty was once I was in the military, there was a couple of instances where people were... to put it generally disrespectful.

socialmovements
sociallife

mcproud_wayne-32

MB: OK, what sort of things were they doing that were disrespectful?

socialmovements

mcproud_wayne-33

WM: One of the men that I remember, this occurred down at Fort Rucker, Alabama, where I was Second Lieutenant ... we had the job of training, ... guess they were National Guard, units from Alabama. And, I remember a number were lawyers ... and they didn't want to be there, they didn't want to go to Vietnam War, so they joined the National Guard. And... You know, you can tell when people are just being passively aggressive whenever you try to, we were trying to teach; see I was in a [indistinguishable] helicopters, and you try to teach procedures and safety features and all sorts.

socialmovements
vietnam

mcproud_wayne-34

WM: Not only were they not interested they were saboteurs. One event I remember I was trying to explain how to hot rig a helicopter and a pair of goggles went [goggle noise] out into the bushes and then one of these ... lawyer types said lieutenant, says I can't do anything cause I don't have any goggles. I felt like telling him go back in the brambles and get 'em, but they told us to be respectful, so I was.

socialmovements
vietnam

mcproud_wayne-35

MB: Yeah, when people just aren't interested, it makes it really hard to do anything. What big culture changes did you see between the 60s and the 70s?

change

mcproud_wayne-36

WM: Well ... see I went from being a student to working in industry. And you know the ideal life- lifestyle of a student is considerably different than the ... dog eat dog world of industry, so that would be a big cultural change, but I don't think that had anything to do with the war in particular or the peace movement, it was just a movement in your life's activities.

change

mcproud_wayne-37

MB: All righty. And then have you changed your mind on any big issues since the 60s?

values

mcproud_wayne-38

WM: Well, I don't know vote for Boise State anymore so ... not really I consider myself to be the same basic person I was then, hopefully I buttressed a few other rough edges, I buffed them down might be a better way of saying it.

values

mcproud_wayne-39

MB: OK and then the last question I had for you was, what do you think was the best aspect of the 60s and what do you wish American Society still possessed from that time?

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-40

WM: Again, my experience was completely academic and school oriented, and it was a comradery. I suppose you found the same thing; you've got a core group of people that you consider good friends and enjoy being with. That diminishes as you get older, it you know you're fortunate to keep a few. In college I was in a fraternity, oh you had 60 or 70.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-41

MB: What fraternity were you in?

culture
values

mcproud_wayne-42

WM: Farmhouse.

culture
values

mcproud_wayne-43

MB: Oh nice, I'm in Kappa Alpha Theta.

culture
values

mcproud_wayne-44

WM: So, you're a KAT.

culture
values

mcproud_wayne-45

MB: Yes. Did you enjoy your fraternity experience here?

culture
values

mcproud_wayne-46

WM: Sure, sure, sure yeah. We had active some of the old fraternity brothers there, getting fewer and fewer every year, you know in the, in the obituaries, but ... yeah that's ... they become a family.

culture
values
family

mcproud_wayne-47

MB: Do you think fraternity life has changed a lot since you've been in school?

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-48

WM: I suspect so, I'm not involved with the fraternities anymore, so I don't know what's going on, I do know here at Idaho, Farmhouse was a vibrant active fraternity at that time and now its disbanded.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-49

MB: I think I heard that they were going to try to come back in the next couple years.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-50

WM: Yeah, I I did get a donation request, so I assume they are, but, the reason Farmhouse was so vibrant back in the 60s, 50s and 60s, was we had a ... university professor that was ... took the bull by the horns and really lead them. And then once he passed away it, they didn't really find anybody to replace him.

culture
change
values
family

mcproud_wayne-51

MB: It makes it hard when there is no like, leaders left.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-52

WM: I understand that ... the reason they disbanded was not because of hanky panky or anything, they just ran out of people.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-53

MB: Yeah, there's a lot of fraternities on campus now so the smaller ones are running out of people.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-54

WM: So ... yep.

culture
change
values

mcproud_wayne-55

MB: Is there anything else that you would like to talk about?

education

mcproud_wayne-56

WM: What's the purpose, I mean what do you hope to, to come out with at the end of this, some kind of statistical ... indication or statistical measure of how attitudes have changed or or something like that?

education

mcproud_wayne-57

MB: I think we might look at that, the main thing was to like teach us how to conduct an oral history, and then since we were learning about the 60s it just made sense to like, do it on that. And then I think at the end we'll all like compile ours together and then put them into the archives so other people could like, look at them for reference.

education

mcproud_wayne-58

WM: Talk about military and attitudes, been thinking about this let's see, I took ROTC up here, and got my butter ballers when I graduated. But I ... see Idaho is a land grant college, which means that they are obligated to teach military.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-59

MB: Oh, okay.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-60

WM: That's one of the requirements for being a land grant college. Military and mechanical orders, which mean that they gotta teach engineering. And ... in 1962, the year before I came up here, it was required that all freshmen and sophomores had to take ROTC.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-61

MB: Oh, okay.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-62

WM: And I was in army ... the army ROTC program the year before I got here, had 600 male students that were taking basic ROTC. My advisor, Art Finley at the crop science department encouraged me to sign up for ROTC, which I did. And in 1963 they went from 600 to 36.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-63

MB: Wow.

sociallife
war

mcproud_wayne-64

WM: Which I think is indicative of the ... reluctance and maybe back handed way of saying that they didn't approve of what the US was doin' and want no part of it. So ... but the advantage of it was, they treated us 36 like royalty. We didn't have six o'clock formations and we didn't have to wear the uniform all day and just in other words they ... didn't want to lose anybody.

sociallife
war
vietnam

mcproud_wayne-65

MB: You guys got the special treatment.

sociallife
war
vietnam

mcproud_wayne-66

WM: Yeah... and that would have been a big difference.

sociallife
war
vietnam

mcproud_wayne-67

MB: That does seem like it would be a big difference, going from like, that's a very drastic change in numbers.

sociallife
vietnam
change

mcproud_wayne-68

WM: Well, we went down 95%.

sociallife
vietnam
change

mcproud_wayne-69

MB: Yeah, yeah well interesting. I never thought about the Vietnam War that much, even though my uncle, he fought in the, in the war but I never knew him, so I just have not really heard that much about it.

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-70

WM: One of my favorite stories about Vietnam, you'll get my quirky sense of humor with this, I hope.I spent ... two years during the Vietnam War in the military, and I was stationed down at Fort Rucker Alabama which is right down in the corner where Georgia and Florida and Alabama come together. And they say you know 'what-what you do during the Vietnam War?', well I protected southern Alabama, and I was so good not a single Vietcong attack occurred down there.

vietnam

mcproud_wayne-71

MB: Was there anything else?

mcproud_wayne-72

WM: Nope.

mcproud_wayne-73

MB: Kay, that was all my questions that I had for you.

mcproud_wayne-74

WM: Aren't you not interested in what Moscow was like, aren't you interested in ...

childhood

mcproud_wayne-75

MB: Oh yeah ... didn't even think of going on that, yeah how was Moscow and U of I like during that time?

culture

mcproud_wayne-76

WM: Smaller. I think we were about 6-7 thousand students then, so that's about half the size you are now. I think we were more isolated, because a large number of students lived on campus, so ... but .... we were kinda in a world to our own.

[00:17:57]
culture
education

mcproud_wayne-77

MB: What was your favorite part about living in Moscow during this time?

culture

mcproud_wayne-78

WM: Well it had been my home for, I mean I essentially, I lived here for 15 years 16 years before I went in to the university so it was home. And I got a home cooked meal once a week so ...

childhood

mcproud_wayne-79

MB: Pretty nice. So you grew up in Moscow? How was that?

childhood

mcproud_wayne-80

WM: Well, small town... again just you know you had your cadre of associates, fellow students ... I went to school here for 12 years before I went to university, and there were a large number of kids in my class that went here 12 years, so we basically grew up together.

childhood
education

mcproud_wayne-81

MB: Were the students in Moscow like mostly from Moscow ID or were there a lot of people from like out of state or different places?

education

mcproud_wayne-82

WM: Looking at the ones I knew, course I was in the ag school but very few Moscow kids, most of them, a lot of them were Idaho kids but they came from... all the way from Bear Lake to Bonner's Ferry. .... So where are you from?

education

mcproud_wayne-83

MB: I'm from Boise.

education

mcproud_wayne-84

WM: So, we had a fair number from Ada County so ...

education

mcproud_wayne-85

MB: Were there a lot of like international students or was it mostly like northwest?

educationculture

mcproud_wayne-86

WM: Undergraduate was primarily uh Americans. Graduate students, a very large percentage were international. I think the same is true today isn't it.

education
culture

mcproud_wayne-87

MB: Yeah, I think there is a really lot of international grad students.

education
culture

mcproud_wayne-88

WM: But most of your classmates I assume, you're what a sophomore, junior, senior?

education

mcproud_wayne-89

MB: I'm a senior.

education

mcproud_wayne-90

WM: Senior. I assume most of your classmates are uh American citizens.

education
culture

mcproud_wayne-91

MB: [nods]

education
culture

mcproud_wayne-92

WM: I don't think that's changed much.

education
culture

mcproud_wayne-93

MB: What was the like ... campus community like? Did like the community support each other like was, just what was the vibe of campus?

culture

mcproud_wayne-94

WM: You know I was in a fraternity ... so fraternities tended to operate at a different sphere than the GDI's. And ... one story about the Pitman Center here, my roommate, his name was Jim Johnson, ran for ASUI president, practically won. But he had a campaign, campaign gimmick he always wore a red tie. That was his, his way of being recognized, so we decided that we would cut out little red ties and pin them on all of the campaign posters of the people he was running against.

culture

mcproud_wayne-95

WM: So, we started going up all the campaign posters here, and it was the sub then, next thing we knew here came all the janitors and administrators says, 'what are you doing?' oh putting red ties on 'em, so he says 'get outta here'. So just that kind of shenanigans.

culture

mcproud_wayne-96

MB: Has anything like on campus like changed significantly since you've been here? Like new buildings or like new ...?

change

mcproud_wayne-97

WM: The athletic complexes ... the Kibbie Dome was relatively new when I got here, they didn't have the swim center. They of course didn't have the basketball center.... I think that was significantly different than the, a whole bunch of new buildings, Theophilus Tower wasn't here then, that apartment complex they're on what was that 6th and line or whatever it is.

change

mcproud_wayne-98

MB: Oh, like the LLC's?

change

mcproud_wayne-99

WM: Yeah, whatever you call it. The university classroom center had just been built, and it was brand new. Art and architecture was still in the old Lewis Gym. You know building wise it's changed considerably but outside of what did you, what do you have 12,000 students here now?

change

mcproud_wayne-100

MB: Something like that.

change

mcproud_wayne-101

WM: So, it's, that's doubled. Student wise, well you know math courses I think are still the same as are the physics, so I don't know about your social studies courses but...

change

mcproud_wayne-102

MB: What was your favorite part of living on campus?

culture

mcproud_wayne-103

WM: Fact that it was a family. You know, did things together which we needn't go into.

culture
family

mcproud_wayne-104

MB: How - so you went to Montana for your grad school?

education

mcproud_wayne-105

WM: Montana State.

education

mcproud_wayne-106

MB: How was that, like in difference to Moscow?

education
change
culture

mcproud_wayne-107

WM: Oh, university wise they were about the same size at that time, maybe Montana State was a hair bigger. Bozeman was about same size as Moscow, so physically, it was very similar but ... whereas you're involved with an eclectic number of people as an undergraduate so you're very concentrated, so basically, I had a core group of maybe three or four people, five people that we were all graduate students together under Bob Eslick. That was the social end of it. But I will say this about Montana State you see the fishing's a hell of a lot better than it is here in Idaho.

education
change
culture

mcproud_wayne-108

MB: Did you get, did you go fishing a lot?

culture

mcproud_wayne-109

WM: I, second year I was there three of us got together and rented a house. Paid 150 bucks a month for it, $50 apiece and that pretty well took care of all of our spending money and so we lived on, one of the guys shot a deer so then we would go out, and you could fish you around there, on those rivers and we lived on venison and fresh trout for the whole year.

culture

mcproud_wayne-110

MB: Wow. How was the, like was the community different in Montana?

culture

mcproud_wayne-111

WM: You know Montana, was rural, the word cowboy comes to mind. They, you know they had working cowboys around there. Moscow has an agricultural base, it doesn't have an animal agricultural base, it's a crop base, and they're different breeds of cats.

culture

mcproud_wayne-112

MB: Did that change your experience there?

culture
change

mcproud_wayne-113

WM: Well, the fact I was a graduate student, you, you know as an undergraduate student your social center is your fellow students. Your graduate students is your major professor and the other people in the department and your research associates, so you're dealing with older people, more mature people, not necessarily more sane but ...

culture
change
education

mcproud_wayne-114

MB: Where did you prefer to live, like did you like Moscow better or did you like Montana?

culture
change

mcproud_wayne-115

WM: I grew to like Montana better I think, it was like I said it was, if you like the outdoors, you're only 190 miles from Yellowstone Park and some of the best fishing streams in the continental US are within a half hour drive from your dorm room so, if that's what you're interested in. I think the University of Idaho was a little more cosmopolitan, more culturally oriented.

culture

mcproud_wayne-116

MB: Um, you're living in Moscow now.

adulthood

mcproud_wayne-117

WM: Right.

adulthood

mcproud_wayne-118

MB: How, do you like Moscow more like now or did you like Moscow better back then?

adulthood
change

mcproud_wayne-119

WM: Oh, I don't know, it's different, I basically kicked around the world, I was a barley breeder, I made new varieties of barley, and wheat. And I was in charge of barley breeding programs in Canada and the United States, I worked as a barley breeder in England for a while, then I was in charge of research for wheat and barley development for USAID loan and the Republic of Korea. And then I came back here, started my own little company with my parents so you know, I came back here primarily to raise my son so there's, you know there's some ill influences in other parts of the world.

adulthood

mcproud_wayne-120

MB: I don't know what else to ask, you could add anything?

mcproud_wayne-121

WM: Well, I didn't know what you're after, but I think what you're after is the political changes.

mcproud_wayne-122

MB: Doesn't have to be.

mcproud_wayne-123

WM: But uh, I think that's about it.

mcproud_wayne-124

MB: Awesome.

Westberg_joanne

westberg_joanne-1

Evan Lindemood: My name is Evan Lindemood, a student in the history department of the University of Idaho, here interviewing Joanne Westberg for Dr. Scofield's class on the 1960s. So to start, will you give us some general information on your background - how you - when you grew up, where

[00:00:00]

westberg_joanne-2

Joanne Westberg: I was born in 1949, I'm 73 I was born and raised in Moscow. My family has been in Latah county since since 1883. I was raised to our farm southeast of Moscow, and Moscow was, there wasn't a lot of diversity. We had, the Lees were Chinese, the Griffiths were black, Hiroko Hayashi was Japanese, and I was so unaware of history at that time that I didn't even know about the internment camps. And so, only at a reunion five years ago probably did I ask Hiroko "where was your family?" and they were not, actually they were living in Japan during the war and her father had been in the United States.

Sociallife
Diversity

westberg_joanne-3

JW: At any rate they were not. But I was so unaware of history of really I mean World War Two seemed ancient to me which is pretty amazing because I had an uncle who was a POW in Germany, I had an uncle who flew suicide missions, an uncle in the Coast Guard, my father was in the army; you would have thought that I would have been pretty aware but not at all. Not at all. So, went-graduated Moscow high school, went to the University of Idaho my freshman year, joined a sorority.

War

westberg_joanne-4

EL: And what year was this?

[00:02:23]

westberg_joanne-5

JW: I graduated high school in '67. So, went to the U of I from the fall of 67 spring 68, joined a sorority; we were allowed to wear pants until noon on Saturday. So that's how conservatively I grew up. I went to the university-so I went-all my schooling here in Moscow through my freshman year of college. Went to summer school at the University of Oregon in Eugene, which was just an awakening for me, was like wow, I mean so...a different world from Moscow ID. And then I went my-I decided to go into pharmacy, which is why I went to Oregon for summer school and get pre recs, and then I went to the University of Pacific in Stockton, CA, my sophomore year. Private school, affiliated with the Methodist Church, but I can remember a debate between Hugh Hefner and a nun, I can remember the guy who wrote the population book spoke, I mean it was entering a different world for me. University of Oregon, definitely, but that was more like summer camp for big kids or something, I don't know, it wasn't-I didn't have the classes that challenged me like they did at the University of Pacific. The culture challenged me in Oregon, but the classes in Stockton were a real challenge and I decided I don't wanna live in California, so I transferred back to Idaho State to go to pharmacy school there and just to tell you what a different world we lived in in 1969 - I called my boss in Moscow who was on the board of pharmacy for Idaho, and he had been irritated that I didn't go to Pocatello. And so I called him on a Thursday afternoon and I said "you know I'd kind of like to go to Idaho State." He said "what do you want me to do? Do you want me to call the school?" And I said "yes please," and he called back that afternoon and said "Be there Sunday." Now I had applied to Idaho State the prior year and I applied to WSU and I ended up going to Stockton so they did have-but I mean really - "be there Sunday."

Education
Gender
Culture

westberg_joanne-6

JW: That's how much...that is how different the world was, and Idaho State was very conservative, so while I was at Idaho State I looked kind of like a flaming liberal because it's easy to do that in Pocatello. I didn't protest the war, I did write to Nixon against the war and I like to think I made his enemies list, but I didn't do any protests. The pharmacy school was very conservative, the Dean was very conservative; not that that - I wasn't a firebrand by any stretch of the imagination at all - but it was a very traumatic time. It was a very traumatic time. And I think the summer of '68, in my opinion; the summer of '68 was a watershed summer, and the world shifted. The world shifted in the summer of '68 and I certainly was-it changed me. It changed me. And I am now, I've been divorced for 21 years - happily divorced - but my guy, who grad-we were in 3rd grade together so you know, knew him forever and got together with him five years ago - he was drafted into it and went into Vietnam and his worldview, his world experience and his worldview is entirely different than mine. Grew up together but ended up totally different experiences, and really very different outlooks in life, on life. Yeah.

Education
Draft
Socialmovements
Change

westberg_joanne-7

EL: So you mentioned that '68 was a turning point; some people would attribute that to a lot of the social movements happening at the time. I'm wondering how you or your parents or community-you-you mentioned the Idaho State University was pretty conservative; how did you feel about them? How did they feel about them? And their leaders?

[00:07:38]

westberg_joanne-8

JW: One thing I would say: when I was a junior in high school - so this would be the spring of 1966 - I was chosen to go to youth legislature in Boise; they sent four of us - one was a senator, one was a representative, one was-I think I was lobbyist, and God only knows what the 4th person did. But we presented a memoriam - I think that's what it's called - a memorial? Memoriam? At youth legislature in the spring of '66 in support of the war in Vietnam, because it had started to be a little controversial and we presented this - and it passed unanimously. That's where we were in the spring of '66. And by certainly the summer of '68, the world was different, the war was much more controversial, but it was a pretty rapid change. You know, not that Idaho was ever a progressive state, but this was-these were kids from all throughout Idaho and it passed unanimously. Somebody said "it's like voting for motherhood and apple pie," so that's how quickly the world view changed. Yeah. I had a first cousin and we were fairly close, he grew up in Pullman, he graduated in 68, he joined the marines, he was badly, badly wounded in May of '69, and came home really really disillusioned and angry. Angry, he, and his dad was the one that was the POW. But yeah it was a pretty rapid shift across the nation.

Vietnam
War
Socialmovements

westberg_joanne-9

EL: And it became even controversial within Idaho?

[00:10:19]

westberg_joanne-10

JW: Oh, it became controversial everywhere. Everywhere. It became controversial in homes. You know, I mean, my mother was...I mean yeah. Yeah, it...Idaho was probably a little slow maybe, overall, but definitely it was quick, yeah. Yeah they blew up the armory in Moscow, I think they burned down the navy building on campus; there was a fair amount-in fact, I was a freshman in history at the U of I, and our professor, who would have been in his 50s, he had a son my age; he protested the war and got a draft notice. You know, there was stuff going on that most of us were unaware of, but, yeah.

Vietnam
War
Socialmovements

westberg_joanne-11

EL: What would you attribute - because you said that the shift from basically supporting the war to it becoming very controversial - it happened very quickly. Can you point to anything that would have caused that so quickly?

[00:11:26]
Vietnam
War

westberg_joanne-12

JW: I think we were starting to understand that we had been misled. That, you know I think going to Vietnam, I think they really did believe, you know we're stopping the domino effect, we're stopping communism, but we were beginning to see that we were being misled, and the war wasn't going the way they implied it was going. And some soldiers were coming home and telling their experiences, and yeah, we were starting to see that it wasn't the way they had represented it, yeah.

Vietnam
War

westberg_joanne-13

EL: So did it change how you felt about America as like a global power?

[00:12:37]

westberg_joanne-14

JW: You know, it made me-not as a global power, but it led me to distrust Nixon especially, but people who were blind to what was happening and staunch in the "this is America," well you know, there was a backlash to the hippies, for instance, and so they're kind of just categorizing, I think, young people. I thought in my heart, my generation will never go into a bad war, and then George W. I mean I was stunned. I did have a classmate who went to Canada, and my brother has such a soft heart, if he had been drafted it would have killed him. And I felt like my classmate had a good reason to go to Canada but Bill, having been drafted, doesn't think that there ever should've been amnesty. And it's just interesting how with different life experiences we come out with different philosophies in a sense. I mean I really think if you're interviewing me you should interview him because whoa. We don't talk politics at all.

War
Draft

westberg_joanne-15

EL: So it might be a good resource for a different...

westberg_joanne-16

JW: It would be a very different, very different perspective. And you know I can't discount that because he had a very different experience in life, yeah.

westberg_joanne-17

EL: So, staying on this interview for now,

westberg_joanne-18

JW: OK

westberg_joanne-19

EL: You mentioned a lot of people supported the war in the beginning because it-for the idea that it would stop that tide of communism.

[00:14:55]

westberg_joanne-20

JW: Right

westberg_joanne-21

EL: What were your thoughts on communism and other people's thoughts on communism?

Communism

westberg_joanne-22

JW: Well I thought it was evil! You know, it was the '50s, the Red Scare. It was interesting, my mother, who is also a pharmacist, and we didn't understand then, but there was a TV show called "I Led Three Lives," and he was a double agent working for Russia and the United States, and then he was a citizen so that was I guess his third life, but my mother wouldn't let us watch it and now I realize she felt like it was propaganda and Red Scare. And at the time of course, we just knew we weren't allowed to watch that show, but looking back on it, I think my parents, my mother especially, knew there was a lot of propaganda going on, McCarthy and all of that, and she kind of sheltered us from that a bit.

Communism
Coldwar

westberg_joanne-23

EL: Just want to clarify: the anti-communist propaganda?

Communism

westberg_joanne-24

JW: Well right, the Red Scare propaganda, yeah the Red Scare. She sheltered us from that a bit. But I mean, we're hiding under our desks because they're gonna bomb Spokane, Fairchild, you know, we're hiding under our desks in Russell school, you couldn't help. The Cuba crisis! I was scared to death! My mother's response was, "We don't want to survive a nuclear attack," you know, people are building bomb shelters and storing water food and my mother's response "we don't want to survive" and that is not a comfort to a 10-year-old.

Communism
Coldwar

westberg_joanne-25

JW: But we happen to go visit my uncle in Pullman, and he was working on a project and I went down to talk to him for a minute and it was just the two of us and he said "No one will start a nuclear war. It would be too disastrous, nobody's gonna do that, don't worry it's not gonna happen," which was much more comforting. I'll always be grateful that he took the time to listen to me and my fears and...my mother just wasn't that empathic she you know she was, "we don't want to survive that!" well you know, I'm not really ready to die either. [chuckles] She said, "go to the fruit room, there's food down there and there's no out, and it's all inside walls, in the basement." But yeah, it was, it was scary, yeah.

Coldwar

westberg_joanne-26

EL: So in school you did some of the duck and cover sort of things?

[00:18:09]
Coldwar

westberg_joanne-27

JW: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah.

Coldwar

westberg_joanne-28

EL: And did you kind of see through that from the beginning, that in the event...

Coldwar

westberg_joanne-29

JW: Oh no! No! Dear God, I'm sure I hoped it would work. You know, I mean clearly. First of all Russell school is very old to start with and the school would have collapsed [chuckles] but those little desks, they weren't gonna do much for us. But no, absolutely, I hoped, you know. Yeah. In the '50s, I had a classmate who was telling me that there were skylights in the 1912 building, they ended up covered and they didn't rediscover them until not that long ago, but there were skylights in the top floor, and her family would take a picnic and sit in the stairwell where they could see out the skylights. And this was a stairwell, it wasn't even really open it was kind of just a closed in, but they could see out the skylights and watch for Russian planes. It was a frightening time. Yeah.

Coldwar

westberg_joanne-30

EL: So you were just kind of on the lookout for that

westberg_joanne-31

JW: Well I certainly was not looking for Russian planes. But I was worried. Afraid of the Russians.

Coldwar

westberg_joanne-32

EL: So how would you describe yourself in the 60s? How would you characterize your values at the time? And have those changed?

[00:19:45]
Values

westberg_joanne-33

JW: Probably not I don't think your basic values ever really change. I mean, I think, I don't think you really change in your basic values. I was oblivious, you know, a farm kid in Moscow, ID, fearful of the Russians, but pretty much oblivious to most things. College was a gradual awakening, I mean the U of I where my history professor got a draft notice and he was way too old, and Eugene, where they were just a much freer culture, and then the University of Pacific, where they really challenged you and made you question your own values. I don't think my values changed I think I gradually became aware of the world around me, and that made me see my values more clearly.

westberg_joanne-34

EL: You were able to apply them.

westberg_joanne-35

JW: Yeah, I was able to really evaluate what they were in and the impact they had on me, yeah.

westberg_joanne-36

EL: So you mentioned that going to Oregon was kind of a culture shock for you

[00:21:32]

westberg_joanne-37

JW: Yeah [laughs]

westberg_joanne-38

EL: Can you go a little more in depth? Like what was shocking?

westberg_joanne-39

JW: I'm at the U of I - we can wear pants until noon on Saturday, that's it; wear dresses the rest of the time. We had pledges, we had to be out of the house, but very regimented in our in our tasks and our study table and all of that, and I go to the University of Oregon, and it's a co-ed dorm to start with. It's a very free campus, it's... I fell in love for the first time... there were blacks I can remember this group of black girls and they were laughing and saying "Commie snowflake! [inaudible] tar baby" you know, they were, but I hadn't seen that at Idaho really, we didn't have much, not much diversity at all. You know, the football players who had Ray McDonald and Gus Johnson and, but there really wasn't much diversity on campus, and so that was very different at Eugene. I loved it. I loved it, it was like breath of fresh air, yeah. You know, you didn't have curfews, I had curfews in the sorority. It was wild, in a way. I met a guy from California who would have been a big mistake, but just dodged that bullet and stepped into another one so there you go. [laughs]

Diversity
Change
Discrimination

westberg_joanne-40

EL: As happens sometimes.

westberg_joanne-41

EL: Did you ever witness or maybe even participate in forms of discrimination at the time?

[00:23:46]
Discrimination

westberg_joanne-42

JW: You know, if there was a bias when I grew up - and it wasn't anything that my parents ever said, in fact, I can remember my parents buying my brother a book about Chief Joseph that was very expensive, I can remember them discussing whether they should get this book or was it just too expensive, and so I never...my mother said that her father used a lot of ethnic slurs, but her mother was raised in Chicago and lived among many different ethnic people, and would never use an ethnic slur.

Discrimination
Diversity

westberg_joanne-43

JW: So, but growing up I did see Native Americans that, when we went to Lewiston, I did see Native Americans that were clearly drunk, and it did affect my feeling about Native Americans, and that was only that I hadn't seen that before and I was shocked by it and it colored my my view. But because there was no other cultural diversity, I didn't have any bias towards any other group, you know? We had Gary Lou and Hiroko and the Griffiths and we - I'm gonna take that back. So, the Griffith that was in my sister's class, three years ahead of me asked her on a date, and my parents said "you cannot go because that could lead to love, that could, and that is very complicated and that is too hard if you had children it's just it's too hard" so that was the only, and it was never "we don't like him" it was only "that's not a good idea."

Discrimination
Diversity

westberg_joanne-44

EL: Interesting

westberg_joanne-45

JW: Yeah, and I'm not the only one, I had a good friend who asked Hiroko out -- wanted to, wanted to - and his parents said no for the same reason and I know Brent's parents, they were lovely people, I mean but there was that fear of what that could lead to. So I did experience those two things yeah.

Discrimination
Diversity

westberg_joanne-46

EL: So I guess with those asking-asking Hiroko out or asking somebody out, it was less about the people themselves?

Discrimination
Diversity

westberg_joanne-47

JW: Everybody loved Hiroko

westberg_joanne-48

EL: It was more about the outside pressures of this...

westberg_joanne-49

JW: It was more about the possibilities of falling in love, yeah that's really what it was about.

westberg_joanne-50

EL: Particularly about the different racial backgrounds?

westberg_joanne-51

JW: Well just the mixed cultures of children, yeah. Yeah so those things I did experience.

westberg_joanne-52

EL: What big cultural changes did you see between the 1960s and 1970s?

[00:28:02]
Change

westberg_joanne-53

JW: I got married in 1972 and started family and was oblivious for several years, and I've talked to other friends who said the same thing, you know, we're not even sure we saw the news I mean we were raising kids we were working full time and raising kids and I have to say... And I was with a very conservative... I was living in Kellogg, ID. That's a culture of its own.

Gender
Sociallife
Family
Culture

westberg_joanne-54

EL: How so?

westberg_joanne-55

JW: Well, very redneck, very lawless. They had open gambling everywhere. I actually thought - and this is how naive I was - I'm a pharmacist I'm 23 I've you know I go to Kellogg ID and there's slot machines in the entryways of restaurants, these aren't bars, these aren't gambling halls, these are restaurants, family restaurants. And I guess I thought it must be a county thing, but it wasn't legal and I didn't know that, I just saw it everywhere and thought it has to be legal. I can remember asking my ex about this board we saw one place and he goes "We'll talk about it later," and it was a gambling thing, and he didn't wanna talk about it, yeah. But you know they were eventually in maybe '92, the FBI swooped in on a Sunday morning and closed all of that down, but the brothels were running, the gambling was open.

Sociallife
Culture

westberg_joanne-56

JW: So that was another, very much another culture shock for me, you know, people would say I've never seen a woman pharmacist before - well my mother was a woman pharmacist - but it was, you know... I think cultures are handed down through the generations, and in the silver valley, there was a mining community and that "the law doesn't apply to us" carried on for generations. I just talked to a pharmacist last Friday, who moved to Kellogg a few months ago and I said well God bless you and he said yeah it's and he said it's still kind of that lawless mentality you know logging and mining and yeah. So that was you know I did go through yeah it was interesting, it was interesting.

Gender
Sociallife
Culture

westberg_joanne-57

EL: What do you think has changed the most since the 1960s? Probably the easier question, because there's a lot that's changed, is what things are more or less the same?

[00:31:25]
Change
Future

westberg_joanne-58

JW: Well what I fear is that it's not so much that it's changed as it is it's more out in the open. So when I see the state of politics today, my fear is the racism is always been there. The... it's just been somewhat endorsed, that's my fear. It's much more divisive. It's so much more divisive. And even in this house, I will come in here and sit down and watch PBS NewsHour quietly. My parents - I know that they voted for Adlai Stevenson in '52 because being the leader of the army does not make you a good president of the United States, and they voted for Nixon - God bless them I'm sure they regretted that - because they didn't want the Pope to run the country, John F Kennedy being Catholic. So they would go back and forth and really were truly... but thoughtful about it and really I think always reasoned it out together, in a way. And now it's, it's just so much harder, you know. And it isn't-you know, I think I grew up in an era of you don't talk sex, politics, religion; so I don't know that we didn't have the same differences of opinion, but we didn't have this angry divisive thing going on, and my fear is we've just brought... we've just made it okay to be racist and to be anti immigrant and to be angry at everything and distrustful of our government and think it's okay.

Change
Discrimination
Future
News

westberg_joanne-59

JW: For January 6th. OK, now I'm gonna say this, I'm gonna say this - so Bill was seeing... oh I know what it was, he get-I'm not on Facebook, he's on, he's a veteran and he's on Facebook, so he gets the veteran Facebook stuff. And he said "boy there's a lot of resentment of Pelosi going to Taiwan," and I said "oh wow," I said "well what did the veteran Facebook say about January 6?" and he said "they don't talk about it." So you know I mean, what in the world? And it, and it's hard. It's hard, and he is a good man, but he's getting propaganda, and it's very sad when we're feeding our veterans propaganda. And I respect him, and I told you about my dad and my uncles and I respect that bill went to Vietnam when I was in college writing letters to Nixon, and that he did fear for his life, he was sent to Cambodia when they entered Cambodia; he thought he would never live through that. You know, I can't-I respect what he's been through but I feel so sad that he is getting propaganda by way of the veterans.

Change
News
Future

westberg_joanne-60

EL: Do you think propaganda is more pervasive today?

[00:36:45]

westberg_joanne-61

JW: No. No, look at McCarthy, look at the Red Scare. No, I don't think it's more pervasive, what I think is more pervasive is social media, so now it's more available. We, you know so I guess in a way I would say it is more pervasive, it was always there, but it-now it's everywhere.

westberg_joanne-62

EL: And it's changed.

westberg_joanne-63

JW: It's changed. It's changed, it's more directed, it's easier to hide. It's harder you know, when the senators said to McCarthy "have you after all no shame?" You know, there were people who could stand up to it and you'd get that on the Evening News; now it's so under the radar and so pervasive and so hidden that I think, yeah I think that's much worse, yeah.

westberg_joanne-64

EL: We've been talking about some pretty heavy topics. Just to close it out, I have one more big question for you - what music or artists were you listening to in the 1960s? Do you think music was primarily, or the music at least that you were around - was it primarily about celebration or about these new social changes?

[00:38:01]
Music

westberg_joanne-65

JW: Oh I think it was about the social changes, yeah. No I definitely think the music was, yeah, it was about social change, yeah. I wasn't a fan of The Beatles, I kind of grew to like them maybe way later on in the Abbey Road album, but I-and I wasn't really, you know, when I was in college I didn't have a lot of time for the music and I'd never really been into it much anyway but I didn't have a lot of time for music or for any reading beyond school, you know, and so I can't say I was greatly aware of... was it Bread? I liked Bread, which, you know, nobody even knows about them. Paul Revere and the Raiders, and they were an Idaho group, and I wasn't into Led Zeppelin and that, I didn't get that, just noise to me. So yeah, I would say... but I was struck by the music that was culturally relevant, yeah. I discovered the Eagles later, they would have been probably in the '60s but I didn't really find him until probably the '90s, yeah I wouldn't say I was very musically observant.

Music

westberg_joanne-66

EL: You mentioned that Paul Revere group what did you call them?

Music

westberg_joanne-67

JW: Paul Revere and the Raiders.

Music

westberg_joanne-68

EL: What kind of music were they, just curious?

Music

westberg_joanne-69

JW: Well they were rock, they were rock, but they weren't the wild wild, they were, yeah.

Music

westberg_joanne-70

EL: More the older...

Music

westberg_joanne-71

JW: Yeah. And I did like that, I liked you know music from the 50s I listened to more, and I loved, you know, the Supremes and Bobby Vinton and that music, but in the 60s I would say what was relevant to me was the social music, yeah.

Music

westberg_joanne-72

JW: So are you Mormon?

westberg_joanne-73

EL: No, not me.

westberg_joanne-74

JW: You don't look it.

westberg_joanne-75

EL: [laughs] Well, I appreciate that, I suppose.

westberg_joanne-76

JW: How do you know I'm not?

westberg_joanne-77

EL: Are you? You said you grew up Methodist, I believe?

westberg_joanne-78

JW: No, no, I actually grew up American Baptist. The college in Stockton was a Methodist college but the Methodists then disowned them, because of all the political that they were doing.

westberg_joanne-79

EL: What kind of political...?

[00:41:48]

westberg_joanne-80

JW: Well like I said they had Hugh Hefner debating a nun, and I can remember being out on the lawn, and you know, I was this kid from Moscow ID I'm pretty naive, and we had a class that moved us out onto the lawn, and they said "now close your eyes and make love with your hands to the person next to you," which you know I didn't know these people, but it was just a much more challenging yourself and your beliefs and, you know, I can remember I wrote a paper and I said I don't like the idea of someone telling me how many children I can have, and the professor really chastised me for it and I thought, you asked me my opinion, you don't get to chastise an opinion. You can say, you know you can disagree with it, but don't chastise it, you asked for it! But anyway, it was a school where they really were challenging you, yeah.

Culture
Change

westberg_joanne-81

EL: I think I'll close with this one question because I think it's pretty pertinent and important right now.

westberg_joanne-82

JW: OK.

westberg_joanne-83

EL: What changes have you seen as a woman from the 1960s to today? Do you think it's better or worse for women today?

[00:43:16]
Change
Gender

westberg_joanne-84

JW: It's so much better. It's so much better. I don't know a woman my age who hasn't experienced "hashtag me too." My father - and I loved him dearly - he was watching the news one night, and there was a woman that claimed she had been raped and he had three daughters and I was the middle and he said "I think they just make that stuff up!" And I said you know we've never told you but Gail and I were both raped, and... It's good that they're talking about it. It's good that they're talking about it. And I heard a man last week talk about how overdone "hashtag me too" is, well you know why it's over done? So many women experienced it! That isn't overdone, that's pathetic! Anyway, it's much better today, it's better in our jobs. My first job, my husband was a pharmacist and he was moved to a different store and I was moved into his position. This was 1972, $200 a month with big bucks; I was paid $200 a month less than him. So, I decided to go to the boss and I told my dad "I'm going to go talk to the boss," and my dad said "Don't rock the boat. Don't bite the hand that feeds you." So my dad was saying "accept this," and I went anyway and he said it was just an experiment. Yeah, yeah I mean what justification is that? No, it was-it's much better now. And I didn't experience um... you know there wasn't a glass ceiling for me or-because as a pharmacist I could always get a job and I was respected in my profession but there was a lot of... there still is a lot...

Gender
Sexuality
Discrimination
Change

westberg_joanne-85

JW: What's the word for men my father was... and I loved him dearly, but he was a farmer and the girls were not allowed to drive truck or drive tractor. A lot of girls my age were, but my father wouldn't hear of it. And yet, this is a man who said to me "You can do anything you wanna do, you can be anything you wanna be," so in a lot of ways he was a very supportive, loving, encouraging man but he was still sexist because and I grew up in that culture, I mean we didn't really think twice about it, quite honestly. Yeah, it's better today yeah, yeah. He was a chauvinist, that's where I was trying to come by. In some ways, he was a chauvinist, although he married a college-he met my mother in a veterans hospital and she was already a pharmacist, so he did have a lot of respect, but he still had that chauvinistic view, in a way. Yeah, yeah. Interesting, I mean to me that's interesting, I look back on it and I think he was protective and maybe that was really the reason, I don't know, I didn't question it, my sister just butted heads with him constantly. I would watch how she butted heads and I would just avoid that, you know, I mean okay we're not gonna win that one, so I'm not gonna fight it. So in a way, you know but that's part of the acceptance too, you know, okay that's the way it is, yeah.

Gender
Sexuality
Discrimination
Change

westberg_joanne-86

EL: Alright, I think we've gotten through a lot of lot of good stuff today.

westberg_joanne-87

JW: I hope so I hope so, yeah.

westberg_joanne-88

EL: So I think that'll be the end.

[00:48:54]

Sisk_jody

sisk_jody-1

Emma Finley: Ok, this is Emma Finley. I'm here with Jody Sisk. So, i'm gonna start off by reading the consent form.

sisk_jody-2

Jody Sisk: Ok

sisk_jody-3

EF: So, I Emma Finley am a student in history 325 the long 1960s taught by Doctor Rebecca Scofield, associate professor of history at the University of Idaho. We are collecting oral histories from people who lived in Moscow and other areas of Idaho during the 1960s. This consent form serves to inform the interviewee of the conditions of their participation. So, we'll review it and then you'll just say that you understand and approve of the following statements. So, participation in this project is voluntary; you may withdraw from the project or end the interview at any time. During the inner- or- duration of the interview will vary up to 60 minutes and follow up interviews may be requested and are also voluntary.

sisk_jody-4

EF: The interview will be recorded and transcribed and a copy of each will be made available to you. That recording of the interview may contain material to which you hold copyright, you may transfer copyright of this material to the Regents of the University of Idaho. Transcriptions will be made available to the entire class for research purposes, and they may then be preserved by special collections and archives. The University of Idaho student's faculty and staff as well as researchers visiting special- special collections and archives may use the interview for any research, educational promotional, or other purpose deemed appropriate. The University of Idaho library will preserve the interview and transcript. The interview will be made publicly accessible through the UI library for scholarly and historical purposes, including potentially through its website. So you can agree that we've reviewed the consent form and agreed to its statements.

sisk_jody-5

JS: OK, I do agree to its statements.

sisk_jody-6

EF: OK so we can just go ahead and get started then. Do you mind stating your name and date of birth?

sisk_jody-7

JS: My name is Jody Sisk, and my date of birth is October 28th, 1956.

sisk_jody-8

EF: Alright, so do you mind telling us where you were born and raised?

sisk_jody-9

JS: I was born in O'Neill, Nebraska, and moved to southern Idaho; the Hazleton area, at about the age of three.

sisk_jody-10

EF: OK

sisk_jody-11

JS: I spent most of my growing up years in and around the Hazleton and Jerome area. Other than a couple years in Gresham, Oregon when I was in first and part of second grade. I went to school from third grade through my sophomore year in high school in Jerome, Idaho.

sisk_jody-12

EF: And so, what was the broader culture like in your community, in Hazelton or Jerome?

childhood
culture

sisk_jody-13

JS: I grew up in a- it was a farming community. And Jerome was a fairly small town. We grew up- we had a farm of our own. So, and the culture? I mean it was the 60s and 70s and like I said it was a farm community. The only- with a few Hispanics. Other than that, everybody was Caucasian pretty much. And it was mostly, largely, a Mormon community.

childhood
culture

sisk_jody-14

EF: OK were you aware of any big pushes for change in your town? Do you remember any-

socialmovements

sisk_jody-15

JS: I wasn't. It was the beginning of the Vietnam War, of course and at least by the time I was in the late 60s early 70s there was a lot of us- the younger people, who were against the Vietnam War. But there was no, again it was a farming community so there was no like protests or anything like that, that I can remember. As a-as you know as a younger child and an early younger teen. But there was a lot of talk among my friends you know and against the Vietnam war. At home it was just fear and you know I had older brothers that were at the age to be drafted and so there was you know that fear that one of our family members; brothers, cousins, whatever, would wind up being sent to Vietnam. But none that I know of, none of my family was ever killed in Vietnam.

socialmovements
vietnam
family
draft

sisk_jody-16

EF: So, when it came to the Vietnam War, what were your personal thoughts on it at the time? Were they-

vietnam

sisk_jody-17

JS: As a young person when it first started there was a lot of news programs about the horrific killing of children in the villages and stuff like that so I was- you know, as I. And most people I knew were not for the Vietnam War, they did- they were against it, it was none of our business that sort of thing. And there was a- like I said, a lot of horrific news shots and stuff of villages being wiped out. Amongst my peers there was anger about you know, the killing of the children and the innocents and that sort of thing. But a-among my parents, it was just "why are we there, what are we doing with our- sticking our nose into something that's not our business?" basically.

vietnam
news

sisk_jody-18

EF: Yeah. Did- so did seeing those like videos, and hearing that rhetoric from your parents and your peers change how you felt about America as a global leader?

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-19

JS: It didn't, I think because I was so young, I didn't think in those terms.

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-20

EF: Yeah

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-21

JS: You know a-again I was born in '56 and Vietnam started in the mid to late 60s if I remember correctly? I wanna say like '67? So, by that time I'd have only been you know 6, 8 years old. Well- maybe a little older than that, I would have been probably 10 or 12 years old but yeah. So, for me it was just, uhm I didn't have any question about our government so to speak 'cause I didn't, you know I didn't even think about government.

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-22

EF: Right.

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-23

JS: At that, in those ages.

values
news
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-24

EF: Yeah, that makes sense. Did you- were you aware of any other social movements at the time? Was there any other discussion about it among parents or peers?

socialmovements
sociallife

sisk_jody-25

JS: Yeah- because it was the age of the hippies and the protests and all of the stuff. My parents were you know; "Those stupid hippies doing these protests." and "What are they thinking." and "They need to cut their hair and get a job." haha and all of those things, that they were- you know they were upset by the drug use and-and all of that, because you saw a lot of that on the news. Again, not so much in our community. It was it-it was definitely a conservative, farming community. Uhm- yes, the boys wore their hair longer and that sort of thing, but there weren't really hippie communes or any of that stuff going on.

family
sociallife
socialmovements
news

sisk_jody-26

EF: Right, that's interesting.

sisk_jody-27

JS: Yeah!

sisk_jody-28

EF: Did you get most of your news through the television?

news

sisk_jody-29

JS: Yes. Television and newspapers.

news

sisk_jody-30

EF: OK. So I guess-

sisk_jody-31

JS: And-

sisk_jody-32

EF: Oh, sorry, you go.

sisk_jody-33

JS: I was gonna say- and where we lived, we had one channel. So, it was local Twin Falls Idaho news channel. Of course, they have world news; you know, like CBS World News or whatever station it was- I don't even remember now. Walter Cronkrite- Cronkite, that kind of thing. Uhm so yes television was the main source of our news.

news

sisk_jody-34

EF: OK that's really interesting. So, I guess kind of shifting topics a little bit I wanted to ask you about- like, as a woman from the 1960s I wanted to ask you like what changes have you seen as a woman from the 1960s to today?

gender
civilrights
change

sisk_jody-35

JS: Lots of changes. Social mores are different. Women have a lot more freedoms then they did starting in the 60s. For example, uh when I went to school in the 60s girls weren't allowed to wear pants to school. You had to wear dresses, and by the time I got into high school; in the early 70s, they started allowing us to wear pants to school. You could wear pants you know into town and in your casual, but you weren't allowed to dress that way at school. So those kind of dress codes or mores changed quite a bit. Miniskirts were in, and they had regulations about how short your skirts could be and things like that.

gender
civilrights
change

sisk_jody-36

JS: Again, it was a conservative farming, Mormon community mostly so I saw changes in dress and work. The way women were treated on the job, and the pay that they made was way less than a man. And of course, in the 60s I wasn't working yet; again, I was still a child, but during my lifetime I have seen a lot of changes in how women are treated and respected at work. There was you know sexual harassment was a very big thing nobody- there was no rules against it, there was no laws about touching, or what you could say to a woman, when I first started working in the 70s for example. And now of course there's lots of laws to protect women. And men now from sexual harassment on the job and things. Women are- you didn't see women in politics when I was a kid. It was all men; there were no women senators or congressman of any sort. There were no women mayors or governors or anything like that.

gender
civilrights
change

sisk_jody-37

EF: So, do you think- would you say it's better or worse for women today?

gender
civilrights
change

sisk_jody-38

JS: I well- in my opinion it's better. Again, we have more respect on the job; we're still not there but it's better. We're getting closer to equal pay for women. We definitely have women in power positions in our government, as well as in corporations, and in our- you know in all areas of life there are women in power now. Where that was a- that was; when I was growing up women were still pretty much expected to get married and raise babies and stay home. Other than you know; both parents- rarely did both parents' work. You know the dad worked the mom stayed home. I grew up with a mother who did work out of necessity when- 'cause we grew up on a farm and farming didn't pay that well so when she wanted extra money, my mother went out and got a job. But it was a waitress job, it was sewing in a drapery shop, it was those sorts of jobs.

gender
civilrights
change
childhood

sisk_jody-39

JS: It wasn't any money jobs, and she didn't have the education for big money jobs anyway. But as soon as she got the money for the new living room set, or to add a room on, or whatever we needed that we couldn't afford; other than the bare bones stuff that the farming paid for, once she- she quit that job and she went back to being a homemaker. And that's kind of how I grew up, with my mom working different jobs, grocery clerking, or waitressing or-or she managed her own businesses. She managed restaurants; ran them and did the cooking and you know kind of was- she was a business owner throughout my life at different times. So, she was a, you know- but that wasn't the norm at the time. It was more usually the husband that opened the business. It was rare for the woman to. But in my mom's- and my stepdad you know I'm sure financially assisted with the business as well as backed her you know with uhm- the way he could. But he didn't actually work the business, she did all of that, did all the managing and the financial and everything for the business.

gender
civilrights
change
family
childhood

sisk_jody-40

EF: Oh, ok. So, shifting topics again. What- I guess I'm curious about you personally, so do you remember any music or artists that you were listening to in the 60s?

music

sisk_jody-41

JS: Oh, definitely I- in the 60s; because I had brothers that were 8-9 years older than I am I listened to a lot of- I grew up listening to country and western with my dad, and big bands with my mom. So that's the music I grew up with. Patsy Cline, Jim Reeves, Marty Robbins and the big bands; Lawrence Welk on TV, that kind of thing. But my brothers listened to rock'n'roll. And they listened to 50s and 60s rock'n'roll, and that was more the music I was interested in. Myself personally, my favorite was uh the like- Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Doobie Brothers, the Eagles, 60s and 70s rock and roll was definitely my style of music. Although, I did like; I had that western influence from my dad, and listened to Patsy Cline, Jim Reeves that sort of thing, sang a lot of their songs. We were a very uhm musical family, everybody sang. Some of my brothers; liked playing guitars; my mother grew up being in a family band, that sort of thing.

music
family

sisk_jody-42

EF: So about- so- did you notice any themes going on in the music? Did you think- maybe that-

music

sisk_jody-43

JS: Sure, in the rock'n'roll music definitely. Uhm there was a lot of songs written about Vietnam. And there was a lot of songs written about the war period. You know there was also songs about sex, love, rock'n'roll, drugs, that sort of thing too. Yeah.

music
vietnam
sociallife

sisk_jody-44

EF: So other than music, do you remember uhm any memorable films or books that you really enjoyed at the time?

culture
childhood

sisk_jody-45

JS: I remember uhm- I'm an avid reader but I'm more of a fiction reader. I wasn't into biographies or anthologies or that kind of thing. But some of the movies I remember is like; and they were more from the 70s probably, again as a child when we got taken to the drive in it was to watch a western usually. We didn't see- and on television it- mostly westerns that sort of thing usually. But, when I got to be you know driving age, and going to the movies with friends' kind of age, I remember seeing different movies about the Vietnam War. One of the ones that stuck with me; I'm trying to think of the name of it. It was Robert De Niro. Oh gosh honey I had it on the tip of my tongue and now I can't think of it. Can we get back to that one? I'll-

culture
childhood
vietnam
war

sisk_jody-46

EF: Yeah!

culture
childhood
vietnam
war

sisk_jody-47

JS: Yeah. And yeah, I saw a lot; of course, a lot of World War II movies. My dad was an avid World War II movie watcher because he served in World War II. So, war movies I guess would be the ones that- and how factual they were I don't know. But those were the ones that stuck with me, more than-than anything else I can think of. The Deer Hunter, that's the Robert De Niro movie.

culture
childhood
vietnam
war

sisk_jody-48

EF: Oh OK.

culture
childhood
vietnam
war

sisk_jody-49

JS: Uhm, was one of the ones that really stuck with me, and it was based on some guys in Vietnam being captured and tortured by the Vietnamese. That kind of thing.

culture
childhood
vietnam
war

sisk_jody-50

EF: And did any of those films that you mentioned uhm change your perspective on the world? Or-

culture
change

sisk_jody-51

JS: It, Yes! It made me realize; some of those films made me realize the Vietnamese people's side of things, and that the war wasn't all one sided. It opened my mind about both sides of the conflict so to speak. So yeah, in that respect I guess it did because I originally started out blaming them for everything; and then as I saw more news programs, more historical film footage of the you know Vietnam War as I became a teenager in the 70s, that was more eye opening to me. That there wasn't, there's not just one side to any story. I guess.

culture
change
vietnam

sisk_jody-52

EF: Yeah!

sisk_jody-53

JS: Opened my mind.

sisk_jody-54

EF: Yeah absolutely. Uhm- so then, can you tell me a little bit about your early 20s? Uhm maybe-

adulthood

sisk_jody-55

JS: So, I was married I got married just before I turned 20. And when I got married, I took on a child; my first husband had a child from a previous marriage that he had custody of, so I became a wife and a mother instantly. Just a couple weeks before I turned 20. So, my 20s were spent being a housewife and a mom with a kid. I did like my mother, I did part time work here and there as needed but mostly I was a housewife and a mom, and my concerns were you know, of course keeping-keeping our financials together, raising a child, you know trying to raise a child right. And my- we lived basically in southern Idaho for I would say the first year or year and a half of our marriage, and then we moved to Washington after that, and I've been here in Washington ever since.

adulthood

sisk_jody-56

EF: So, um, what would you say as you've kind of experienced the 60s on, what do you think has changed the most in your opinion since the 1960s?

change

sisk_jody-57

JS: I would say our children, and the way they have been- the freedoms that they have, the lack of responsibility that they have. Which has not been a good thing in my opinion. The rules and laws that were made that prevent a parent from parenting their children, necessarily the right way. And I'm not an advocate of abuse by any means, but I do think that children need to have stronger disciplines than they have today and less uhm. I think children have too much electronic time, and not enough family time, outdoor time, and I-and I think that kids aren't made to- we were made to- if we wanted something we had to work for it.

change
values
family

sisk_jody-58

JS: You know, even clothing. If-if, my parents only have so much money for clothing so if I wanted that fancier pair of shoes, or that dress that was in style, I had to go babysitting and earn. You know starting at 13 I babysat and spent my babysitting money to help buy the school clothes that I wanted rather than what just what we could afford. And, if I wanted a car, we had to buy our own car. My parents might loan us the money to-to get us started with the down payment, but we were expected to pay that back. Kids now, everything is handed to them. They're given a car, they're given everything, and they don't know what it's like to struggle and work for things; and I think that's been the ruination of our younger generation.

change
values
family

sisk_jody-59

EF: Have you noticed any things that have kind of stayed the same? Maybe?

change

sisk_jody-60

JS: I mean, somewhat. Again there's- the divorce rates are way, way higher. There's a lot more single parent families. Where- in the 60s, when I was growing up, there was- 90% of the time there was two parents. There was very few single mothers, and I don't remember any single fathers, so to speak. That's a lot more common now.

change
family

sisk_jody-61

JS: But I mean there's still a nuclear family just not as prevalent. I think the single parenting out there is larger than the nuclear family anymore. Or, if it's a nuclear family it's a second marriage to- you know, stepparents and that kind of thing, a lot more so than when I was growing up. Uhm, people still you know have faith. People still have families that they love, and they love their children, and they try to raise them, but there's uhm yeah. I don't know there's not a lot that has stayed the same you know. Other than the earths still turning and that kind of thing. The seasons have changed, the weather patterns have changed; life is a whole lot different than it was yeah, sixty years ago or whatever.

change
family

sisk_jody-62

EF: So, have you personally; as you've grown up, kind of changed your mind on any big issues since the 1960s?

adulthood
change
values

sisk_jody-63

JS: Yes. Well yes, I'm a lot more liberal than I probably was. Again, in the 60s I was pretty much a child, so I didn't have any opinions about things other than "I wanna go out and play", or "I wanna do what I wanna do". As a child does. But, from the-from the 70s I guess is where I could speak from, more than the 60s. I'm a lot more liberal and open minded than I used to be. I'm a lot more accepting of life; like sexual orientation and peoples... space, and people's right to their own opinions, and-and that thing. I'm not as rigid as I was as a younger person. I've gotten more flexible, and thoughtful in my old age.

adulthood
change
values

sisk_jody-64

EF: Mhm, yeah! Well, thank you so much for your time.

sisk_jody-65

JS: You're welcome! EF

sisk_jody-66

EF: Did you have anything else that you maybe wanted to add before we stopped the recording?

sisk_jody-67

JS: Not that I can think of. Everything I- do you have any questions about anything I said?

sisk_jody-68

EF: I don't think so!

sisk_jody-69

JS: OK

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Contents

Fritz_john

White_linda

Peterson_nancy

Ballensky_leroy

Bowman_rich

Scofield_clay

Warren_kathleen

Akin_ron

Hunter_jay

Mcinturff_lenelle

Bielenberg_len

Fishburn_earl

Aiken_katherine

Mcproud_wayne

Westberg_joanne

Sisk_jody